OT: Computer Recording Setups

[travissk]

I should note that the macintosh platform is an option; I use PCs but quite a bit of the software for PC is available on the Mac. They're more expensive for what you get, but my friends who have titanium powerbooks are happy with them. They have never tried to do audio recording, so check out reviews before you decide on anything

[STOMPmole]

I would recommend the M-Audio Audiophile...they just dropped the price at Musiciansfriend to $99.  The card is fantastic sounding, has stable ASIO drivers with low latency, has digital I/O and MIDI I/O, and if you need to expand to more simultaneous tracks later on you can add another M-Audio card and use it simultaneously with the same drivers.

Avoid a laptop and USB audio like the plague.  USB is great for mice and game controllers but for audio and MIDI it sucks...I know, I've tried it.  Some people use USB and like it but I guarantee that in all cases the PCI will ALWAYS have lower latency (very important when running effects, monitoring, using softsynths, using VST guitar software, etc).
Note: the Audiophile card I was referring to above is the PCI version...NOT... I REPEAT.... NOT...USB....

Oh, and if you can swing $80 Tracktion is a great software program for recording live audio tracks with VST plugins.  (also has MIDI support)

[cd]

I didn't realize you didn't already have a computer!  If you need your dollar to go far and don't absolutely need portability, forget about a laptop.  If space is a factor, get one of those small form factor (SFF) PCs and an LCD monitor.  You'll still come out ahead and have more $$$ for a better soundcard or whatnot.  In general for a laptop, you pay TWICE as much for a comparable CRT based desktop.  Add to the fact that if you want to upgrade/add on things later on, you can't just stick a PCI card in, you have to pay through thenose again for special hard drives, USB/external devices, etc.

[aaronkessman]

thanks all, keep it coming. this is very very helpful

ok, so right now i'm looking at:

desktop pc
Emu or Audiophile card
adobe audition
DI (possibly DIY;))

all for recording myself on no more than two tracks at a time.

now about midi keyboard, i'd like to get into this a little bit. what's the basic thing happenening here? i play a keyboard but the softsynth software is the thing actually making the sounds digitally on the computer? sounds good...

again, thanks for the help.

[aaronkessman]

according to http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040814063718066030197004131224/g=rec/search/detail/base_id/52393

the audiophile has midi capability. so what are the differences in quality between this and the Emu card? http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040813095917069158062226823865/g=home/search/detail/base_pid/242512/

for recording just a couple of tracks at a time, is the audiophile a better value?

[RedHouse]

Somewhere a Laptop was mentioned and this may not apply, but I have a regular PC and find that recording is a pain-in-the-rectal-region, the guitar picks up all the buzz from the monitor, so I have to start recording, switch off the monitor (now I can't see levels etc) record stuff, then switch the monitor back on and edit all the dead space from the front and back of the sound file.

Someday, when they are cheaper, I will get one of those flat panel LCD screens and maybe this won't be an issue for me anymore. I just use a SB-Live card, run guitar through a pre-amp out into the sound card.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

I have a regular PC and find that recording is a pain-in-the-rectal-region, the guitar picks up all the buzz from the monitor, /quote]

Maybe a chicken wire cage around the monitor? and a mains line filter.?

[petemoore]

Better Cables..
 I was recording noise, and figured that one thin [shielded RCA] cable was making noise...the HF whirring noise of a computer....
 So I changed the cable to a gold ended thick RS type RCA, and had the extremely rare occurance of the desired and expected effect of eliminating a huge percentage of 'THat' noise...most of the time I change a cable or try out  other noise reducing theories, nothing happens to the noise...this time changing the cable had the intended result ...as I say very rare...
 Also, I got an 'air' connection for second computer, a 'broadcaster' and reciever [wireless]. Again [and even much rarer] I theorized about it being a noise source...this particular noise appeared after it's installation...Fzzt .............. Fac ..  Kl ...... Fzct ...type noises...unplugging the antenna [a 'small lighter sized' affair at the end of a USB cable] eliminated the noise, and plugging it back in brings online service right back!!!

[cd]

Good cables will help but they won't eliminate noise.  Especially if you use single coils.  You have garbage noise kicking all over the place from a computer - not just the monitor.  The HD spinning, power supply, keyboard and mouse if they're wireless... you're bound to have noise problems no matter what computer you use.  Best bet is to use a DI box and have it away from the computer.  That's where some of the more expensive Firewire based boxes are better - you can place them away from the computer and start/stop recording.

[markusw]

for recording just a couple of tracks at a time, is the audiophile a better value?

with the EMU you get "mastering-grade" converters as in more expensive ProTools system and a couple of DSP effects (which you may or may not like). I doubt I could hear the difference between the EMu and the audiophile. but with both cards you get for shure less latency than with the US-122 since they are PCI cards. even with our Audigy PCI card (never buy this one!) we get down to 3 ms. if you want to have an option for both, notebook and desktop you could go with an RME 8 track in/out. There are PCMCIA and PCI adapters so you can connect it to both (and can be sure to get a working system). But the RME stuff is much more expensive. I would take the EMU and e.g. an evolution midi keyboard (USB). they are relatively cheap but work fine. and then plug it into one of those softsynths e.g. by Native Instruments  (the Hamond B4 is really awsome).

[aaronkessman]

hmm. never thought of noise from the crt. I'm not sure it would bother me as long as it wasnt excessive. I'd actually like more of a lo-fi sound so noise *may* be ok.

whats wrong with the audigy? the computer i'm using right now has one - i've never used it, but it looks like it's a serious piece of work...?

Aaron

[travissk]

I use a Sound Blaster live in my computer. Planning to get an Audiophile or Delta card right when I go back to school, especially now that I found out the Audiophile is $100.

Here at home over the summer all I have is an old laptop with a built-in mic preamp. I was planning on getting some recording done, but quickly abandoned that idea. The Live is ok, the Audigy is better, but they are consumer cards, targeted for day-to-day use and gaming, general purpose cards. The M-Audio cards don't come with games, and I don't think they support EAX or the Creative DSP effects.

Don't get me wrong, you can make some incredibly good recordings with an Audigy, and even with a Live you can get really low latency with the free kx drivers. Higher quality cards will simply record the sound going in better, and often with lower latency, less noise, and sometimes lower CPU usage. If you're serious about recording, a better card is one of the best things to improve the quality of your recording. You really can hear the difference.

The difference in quality was enough for me to frequently use our music technology building's computers with M-Audio cards, then upload the audio back to my PC.

[travissk]

Couple more things

-If you want a lo-fi sound, it's much easier to add noise to a pristine signal than it is to remove it. Once you find that you can't overdub too much without heavy noise reduction (which has side effects), you'll wish your card didn't have noise.

Keyboards: you can either get a synthesizer that produces sounds you like, and connect the audio out to your card's audio in, recording your synth as you would your guitar.

Alternatively, you can use MIDI. You're correct, you play notes on the keyboard, which tells the computer things like "start playing an A at this volume level" or "pitchbend this much." The computer can then record this information for later and run it through software synthsizers (softsynths/VSTi's/DXI's/plugins). You can get some models of Moogs, Yamaha DX7s, essentially everything. These can get expensive, but there are free ones and it's really nice to have a wide range of sounds available to you right on your computer.

You can mix both approaches: record a part, save it as midi note information, then get a really cool hardware synth, have the computer tell the synth to play that melody you wrote, then record the synth playing it right back into your project.

[aaronkessman]

thanks travis - yes i definitely understand about the noise issue and would want to use as little noise reduction as possible.

wouldnt playing the instrument across the room with the DI box right there minimize that? I mean, once it's out of the DI box, it's high Z and much less succeptible to interference eh? are you saying that the quality of the card can affect how much noise it picks up?

[travissk]

Well, the card may introduce noise of its own. The mic pre in this laptop is very noisy, my live introduces a little noise, and the onboard sound on my motherboard is unbearable. That's probably electrical interference, but it shows up as noise and the better the card the less of a chance anything will affect your sound that way.

Moving your DI box away from things that generate interference (monitor, some types of lights) may help things some; with that Delta 1010 setup I described, I'm able to play right in front of a monitor with a stock MIM strat, single-coil pickups and everything... no more noise than usual. I'm not sure, but I think that high impedance signals are actually more prone to noise, but I'm not 100% sure on that and it's something I could easily have gotten backwards

[cd]

You're right, high Z can potentially pick up more noise, but a DI box should output a low Z signal (it "converts" the high Z signal from the guitar's pickups to a low Z, line level signal.)

[Bluesgeetar]

I stay the hell away from M-Audio!  At least until Avid figures out what they are gonna do with the company.  We all know Avid tolerates us PC users but could really care less.  Go with the EMU.  I got an 1820M and it whoops ass.  M-Audio is in a transition right now and so you need to wait and see wha tis going to happen with them.  The fact that they have been bought by Avid can't be good.  Can you say $1000 dollar Delta Cards now.  I mentioned this a ways back and got attacked by the M-Audio crowd.  Now the truth is out!  The EMU 1212M and 1820M is about the best setup your ever gonna find for the dough.  This is what all the Mags are saying!  Now everyone can't be wrong!?  

[aaronkessman]

err, my bad, i meant the output from the DI is LOW Z and therefore less succeptible to interference.

Bluesgeetar -- no offence, but before i can appreciate what you said you need to clarify who Avid is and why you think they're going to make a shoddy product. I care very little for what magazines say and less for the mac vs pc war. The Emu 1212M looks good, but if the audiophile card will do what i need it to do, ill take that for half the price. I never expect much in the way of customer service so I wont be dissappointed if Avid wont offer me any.

again, i really dont mean any of that to be a personal attack on you or your opinion, i'm just clarifying what my expectations are and asking you to clarify your reasons... i know much less about these cards than you do and will gladly buy the Emu if you can give me a good reason to. thanks for your help, i mean it!

Aaron

[markusw]

whats wrong with the audigy?

It´s a little tricky to work with but you can do it.  e.g. you can not record in 44.1 kHz (CD format) just in 48 kHz. so you have to convert it before burning it to CD. then there are some issues with monitoring. check out the the SB Audigy forum. you will get a quite a good idea what you may expect. since you already got one you could try it with a DI box and see (hear) if it is OK for you. if not you can still go with the emu.

[Bluesgeetar]

Jeez man, the last thing in the world you need to worry about is offending me bro!  I got unreal super thick skin.  No Avid owns digidesign.  Digidesign is in cahoots to much with Apple if you ask me.  We seen what Apple did with Logic when they bought it and I was thinking Digidesign may have a bad end or beginning for M-Audio.  Not to mention Digi thinks that anything with their name on it demands insane prices.  I may be wrong?  But at the price you're paying for these low dollar card setups you ain't gonna loose that much.   This stuff is really a "your gonna learn the hard way type a thing".  

Your never gonna get a straight answer from anyone.  SO just dive in and take your chances bro.  What do I mean?  People have a bad habit of buying a crappy product do to a lack of research and money and you think they are gonna admit to making a bad decision?  NO!!  They'll tell you that what they have is great and you should get one.  Yada Yada.

I spent what amounts to weeks on the net researching the perfect DAW and Audio prog and card.

Just go for it bro!

Computer recording is like guessing what the kind of equipment the great guitarists used.  Everyone has got their own theory of what was used and how you should go about getting their sound and most of the theories are subpar.