Wah pedals chasis?

[Fret Wire]

Oh man! You should have searched the posts before you bought a dozen of those. Carvin sells a chrome wah-wah you can gut for $29. Ugh!
http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?ItemNumber=VW1&CID=FXP
Peace...

The Carvin deal sold out in a matter of days.
http://diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=27555&highlight=carvin+wah

Funny, I ordered one on the 6th of Dec., and got a confirmation email. Then on the 8th, I found a message on my answering machine saying they were all sold out, and asked if wanted anything else, pedal wise. I didn't call back till the 14th, and they said they had one in stock! It arrived on the 22nd.

I'll do a full report and photos on it in a day or two, but it's really just a GCB-95 (rev. G & H) with a chrome enclosure. Better wiring job, cheaper switch, and a pot that I haven't seen before. Since that pedal has a shorter throw than the vox, my guess is that the pot taper will be closer to the Hot Potz I or II than the Icar type taper of the Fulltone. In the next two days I'll disect it, but from a quick look, the values appear to be the same, as is the board.

So, it was a deal either way. An enclosure for $29, or a cry baby for $40 less than a standard GCB.

[SnooP_Wiggles]

a proel pvp-12 makes a cheap + easy to work with wah enclosure. and it takes standard 16mm pots.

[dadude]

Just a heads up I did a post several weeks ago that compares fulltone pot to the hot potz 1 and they both have the same taper, whether you call that ICAR or not they have the same. The hot potz was even made better and sounded better in a Cyde McCoy circuit.

http://diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?p=185233&highlight=#185233

:roll:

[Fret Wire]

I familiar with that thread. The Fulltone and the Hotpotz have the same value, not the same taper. That thread really illustrated that many people still don't understand the the relationship between the pot's taper, and the rest of the ckt. Pots are not add on appendages. There is nothing magical about pots, they have a set value and a taper. Whether the taper of one brand of pot sounds better in a wah depends on how it works with values you have for for "vocal, gain/bass, midrange, and sweep cap. Go to Geo and re-read up on the tech of the wah article, and try to understand what these mods do, instead of the painting by number's style of modding.

Just as those mods are interdependent on each other, so is the effect of the pot. That's why your values have to be adjusted to your pot, or visa versa. You perform mods that shift the midrange point, or the Q peak, but don't realize the pot's taper shifts the whole sweep range? Do you even check your pot's adjusted sweep with a DMM before you mod to have a recorded basline? You seem to understand that the pots adjustment affects the bass/treble response of the whole ckt, but don't understand that a different brand's taper does the same, and more?

Put a wah on a scope and measure it's response incrementally from o-100k in 5k increments. Now, would it matter what brand pot you used to do this test? No. Now, think about how a pot has 300 degrees rotation, and how the wah can't even rotate the pot it's full 300 degrees. Then think about how some wah pots have different tapers. Further, what part of that limited rotation gets used depends how you adjust the pot. Still want to make that sweeping statement that one particular pot doesn't sound good? Almost forgot, different wahs have different length pedal throws. I can make either pot sound good, with different values and pot adjustment.

Trust me, I'm not RG Keen, Geoffrey Teese, or Stuart Castledine, or the new wah guru. Nor do I post as clearly and concisely as Mark Hammer. But I've been working alot with wahs on getting past the paint by number mods, to get a better understanding how all the mods affect each other.

So just a heads up, the Fulltone is no better or worse than the Hotpotz or others, sound wise. It just has a different taper that isn't working with the particular mods you got off some web site. So, experiment and study up a bit before you make sweeping statements as fact.

[dadude]

Fret Wire-
I did not mean to offend you. But I need to give you some background on myself. Although I am new to this forum, I have been in the electronics industry building and repairing audio components for over six years and going. I hold a degree in Electronics Engineering. I would say I am past the "paint by numbers" point thank you.
As far a potentiometer's operation goes, this was something I learned in my first semester in college. I get the feeling you need to know a bit about potentiometer operation so I have taken the liberty to give you a clip from my first semester Intro to Electronics 101 class book (Introductory DC/AC Electronics Third Edition by Nigel Cook, Prentice Hall page 143).
"With a tapered rheostat or potentiometer, the resistance varies non-uniformly along its resistor element, sometimes being greater or less for equal shaft movement at various points along the resistance element"
That said, having put both pots up on a DMM they displayed the same taper.
I'm sorry you are getting so enraged by my non Fulltone conformance. But I'm stating fact, not theory, not something that someone told me. I have seen this myself. I don't have any affiliation with Fulltone or Dunlop for that matter.
Do you?

[Fret Wire]

No offense, nor outrage. As far as affiliations, I won't bother with that, how old are you? Read what I was saying again, I don't swear by either pot, I just understand the differences their taper's have on the wah ckt. BTW, Icar is the pot the original's used, and has a different taper than the later pots. Castledine and Teese, as well as Fulltone, use pots similar to this taper. That's where the term "Icar taper" comes from.

"With a tapered rheostat or potentiometer, the resistance varies non-uniformly along its resistor element, sometimes being greater or less for equal shaft movement at various points along the resistance element"

Well, that's a basic description of tapers. Now apply it to how different tapers affect the wah ckt. Better yet, read the secret life of pots at GEO, along with the technology of the wah.  

So the Fulltone and Hotpotz have the same taper? Sorry, but that's BS to the first degree. I've measured 5 new of each brand, and they are not the same taper. They are all modified logs, but not the same taper. How many points did you measure at? Not a huge difference if you just look at the numbers, but a big difference in how they sweep the wah ckt. For an example, take a Strat 250k log volume pot. An older one will have pot's that are closer to the true audio taper. A modern low price Strat copy will have what is known as a "commercial log", basically two straight tapers connected. On a DMM there will be a noticeable difference in tapers. And, of course we know how different they react when we play. With wah pots, the differences aren't so extreme on paper, but very noticeable when in ckt.

So what you are trying to claim is that two pots of the same value, taper, and conductive element, not only do not sound the same, but one sucks in the wah ckt. Assuming no manufacturing defects, explain how this is so, please.

Something else for you to consider. All the web sites that have mods for the Cry Baby and Vox 847. What pot do these later model wahs have in common? The Hotpotz I and II, as well as the same basic inductor. Their mod values were arrived at with the same pot. Go to a different taper pot and the results aren't going to be the same.  

I certainly don't mind debating a point or something's merit, because when you're wrong, you learn something. Don't take offense to the paint by numbers reference, that's how a lot of us started out. But when you make a statement as fact, that isn't so, without anything specific about the ckt in question to back it up, then that's what I assume you're doing, mod wise. And I still assume that, since you still haven't explained to me how, two different pots with the same value, but with slightly different tapers, means one is not going to sound good, or is unworkable, all the while ignoring the rest of the ckt.

This is not Harmony Central, where people say what ever they want, and then get personal or flame those who disagree. There are a lot of amazing effects related minds here. If you give an opinion as fact, or quote a website as fact, someone will want a specific example why or why not.

[dadude]

Fret Wire-
I'm not trying to argue with you. I had a Fulltone pot in my shop to replace a Dunlop Hotpotz 1 that was in a VOX 847. I modded the Vox to exact original Vox Clyde McCoy specs. The Fulltone did not do this circuit justice. I wanted to know why.
The two pots values were different. The FT was around 98K and the Hotpotz was around 115k. I measured the pots with a DMM and measured the resistance values using a 1 threw 12 (clock) turn test. So if the values changed in between say 1 and 2 and you really needed that 1.5 reading well... I guess I failed. But going from 1 to 12 they both upped their resistance values in the same places to the same corresponding values. This showed me the taper of the pots. The tapers on both pots were the same. If the Fulltone has an "ICAR" taper pot so does the Hotpotz 1.
Like I said in my first post, maybe I got a great Hotpotz 1 or a lemon Fulltone pot. I don't know, and as I stated it may well have been.
What I can tell you is the materials in the Hotpotz 1 were a lot better than the Fulltone. The overall construction of the two were like night and day. I would trust a Hotpotz in my wah over a Fulltone. The fulltone construction is very similar to a typical alpha pot.
All I was saying is at the cost of all the other parts to make a Clyde mod, I would just leave in the stock HotPotz 1. It sounds great in the circuit and you can save yourself the cash and a headache.

If you would like to continue our discussion please private message me.

Thank you

[Fret Wire]

If you would like to continue our discussion please private message me.

No need, we're not exchanging secret nuclear formulas. Besides, it defeats the purpose of a forum, the exchange of ideas. Pm's are for personal conversations or business.  Explain this taper measurement method more. 1-12:00? If you're not measuring the taper in degrees, a 7:00 - 5:00 measurement is more of an accurate representation when in ckt. Forget value, the 5 of each I tested were all between 95-98k. What you'll see is that they both start out with a small ohm reading. At 12:00, they are withing about 10k of each other. From 2:00/3:00, they both hit max resistance, and stay there untill 5:00. That might make you think the taper is the same. That's not the end of the taper that matters. From 7:00 to 10:00 (9:00 is where it's just starting to break from ohm values to kohm), the Hotpotz increases sharply, where the Fulltone is more gradual. This is the difference you'll hear. The Hotpotz continues this over the Fulltone to about 12:00.

From 2:00/3:00, they both hit max resistance, and stay there untill 5:00.

Keep that in mind when you adjust you pot. Alot of people don't realize that. They just worry about overshooting the pot's mechanical stops.

Which way does toe down (more treble) rotate the pot? Which way does the pot resistance increase/decrease treble on the ckt?

Construction issues are important to durability, but two pots with the same taper, value, and conductive material are still going to sound the same. Durability is why Alpha pots aren't the greatest choice. They may sound ok, but they have a shorter life span, and aren't sealed. I have seen non-sealed pots used with a rubber table leg caps over the body to seal them. How did you get the Hotpoz II open anyways? Probably not hard, but I'm sure it ain't going back together!

Anyways, one thing we agree on is that this thread has become a moot point.

[Gilles C]

Since the subject is the Wah...

I wanted a Wah for Xmas... before I decided on an Airbrush... which my wife, heu, sorry, Santa brough me for Xmas.

So I searched the net for what I could find about "a good sounding Wah'. That's why I changed my mind about what I would have liked to receive for Xmas. I realised that even if they almost look alike, they all sound different.

I wanted one which I could take my foot off for a creamy in-between sound, one with a bigger range, etc...

Anyway, here is some info about the pots used in the Wah that I found interesting.

http://www.analogman.com/kraft.htm

I have more, but you probably know all that anyway.

[dadude]

Wow, I guess your not even reading my posts.

I A/B'd a Fulltone up against a Hot Potz 1 not a 2. Maybe that's why you keep ramming this shit up my ass. I never have checked out the Hot Potz 2 up against a Fulltone pot.

And the reason I asked if you would private message me is this whole subject has nothing to do with the original post to begin with....

My guess is you have ties to Mike Fuller. That's cool. I would have never submitted a post if I new this would have upset you so much. I just have an opinion about a potentiometer nothing more. Thank you and good luck.

:roll:

[Fret Wire]

The Hotpotz I and II have the same taper, the difference being the Hotpotz I measures out between 115 and 120k. What does that exra 15k mean? You'd know if you've been reading. And I did measure the taper of all three, read back a couple of my posts before you go into the Harmony Central- immature mode.

And besides your being full of shit ckt wise, I kinda figured you were one of those trolls who has a hard on for the successful pedal builders like Fulltone, Z-Vex, Teese, etc. Me, I could care less if they're successful or not, doesn't line my pocket either way. And you never even answered one question yet, not that you could.

[Fret Wire]

Hey Giles, you got an airbrush for X-Mas? That's great. Have any experience with one? The possibilities would be endless for FX graphics, not to mention guitar finishing. You can do the first 3-color sunburst pedal.

I've seen that article before, good stuff. Teese has done his homework x10 when it comes to the wah ckt. Notice that the values weren't hard to duplicate, but it didn't come together untill the right inductors and pots were available. We're all just trying to catch up. Pots are confusing enough to people, inductors are even more of a holy grail search. We have some good choices available. I hope Steve Daniels at Small Bear gets his inductor winding supplies soon. I'd like to give that a try.

[dadude]

Too funny...  

My intentions were never to disrespect Fulltone in the first place. There you go again not even reading my posts. In the first post months ago I said that I love the Fulltone inductor.  Why would I give them props if I hate Fulltone?

And I answered all your questions the first, second, third, etc. etc. etc. times. You must have a lot of time on your hands to beat the drum. All I said originally was I found a difference between the two pots and liked one over the other.

Like I said good luck,

:roll:

P.S. wizards? trolls? who's in immature mode? how old am I?

[Gilles C]

Hey Giles, you got an airbrush for X-Mas? That's great. Have any experience with one? The possibilities would be endless for FX graphics, not to mention guitar finishing. You can do the first 3-color sunburst pedal.

A 3-color sunburst pedal  :shock:    :?     Hey, thanks for the idea... I was looking for something different. That would be different for sure. I think I will take photos while doing it.

No experience with an airbrush yet. I painted and applied clear coats with cans or brushes only, until now.

Btw, sorry about being a bit OT here...  :oops:

I've seen that article before, good stuff. Teese has done his homework x10 when it comes to the wah ckt. Notice that the values weren't hard to duplicate, but it didn't come together untill the right inductors and pots were available. We're all just trying to catch up. Pots are confusing enough to people, inductors are even more of a holy grail search. We have some good choices available. I hope Steve Daniels at Small Bear gets his inductor winding supplies soon. I'd like to give that a try.

Btw, at a Xmas party, when I talked about the Wah I didn't get, somebody gave me a Crybaby Wah to repair and keep as long as I like after that. Until he needs it that is, but he said he wanted to switch to keyboards for a while  

So, I'll have to find the best price for a square pot to repair it. That's also why I followed the discussion about the pots...

I'll also have to decide if I want to build/modify one, or just buy a brand new one once I try and find one that I like in stores.

Cheers,

Gilles

[Fret Wire]

A tri color sunburst would be great. Even in a full-top decal like Bucksears does so well.

Anyways, the Cry Baby comes with a Hotpotz II, which is pretty cheap lately. BG Micro has them for $6.95. I ordered three and shipping was $2.25. $7.70 for a wah pot is pretty good. Any of the reg wah pot brands will work good. You just might have to adjust the voicing to match.

If you build one, use which ever pot you want. Since you'll adjust your voicings by ear, they'll automatically be adjusted to suit your pot. It's when you change pots or inductors after you've voiced it, that you may have to go back and tweak your values again.

To buy one, I always liked the Vox the best. Right now, I have a Carvin Vintage Wah apart on the bench. It's basically a GCB-95. Same tough housing, better workmanship for $29.00. Sounds nice too.

[Gilles C]

I began to check the colors needed for a sunburst... Tomorrow, I should have enough to begin  

Thanks about the BG Micro info, it's cheaper than what I saw on Ebay.

I'll order a couple. But from what I saw in the one I have to repair, it's a different kind of connection. But at $6.95, I want some to experiment anyway...

Btw, at first, I wanted to buy a Vox GCB-95, but I don't like having to hold my foot on the pedal all the time because it is spring loaded. But that was the sound I wanted and it is the one a guy I know in a store suggested me to buy.

But another friend I have in another store told me that Vox was owned by Korg now and that it wasn't the good old Vox Wahs because of that... So he suggested me to buy a Budda Wah because it had true bypass.

:roll: That's why I decided to ask for an airbrush instead. That was the first idea my wife had for my gift anyway...  :wink:

[Fret Wire]

Btw, at first, I wanted to buy a Vox GCB-95, but I don't like having to hold my foot on the pedal all the time because it is spring loaded. But that was the sound I wanted and it is the one a guy I know in a store suggested me to buy.

Whoops , the Dunlop Cry Baby is the GCB-95, the Vox is the 847. Both have a spring steel strap that adds tension to the rocker pedal to make it either hard or easy to press down. You can tighten the hold-down screws so it moves harder, and stays put in one spot. When the spring has too little tension, the pedal tends to pop back up when you lift your foot.

Same with the switch. You can adjust it up or down in the housing so it takes a light or hard tap to turn it on. Too light, and you'll accidentally turn it off while rocking the pedal.

They should be treated like the set up on a guitar. Adjusted to the players personal preference and playing position (sitting or standing). If you set it up sitting, and then play standing, it won't have enough rocker tension, and the switch will turn off easy. I set mine standing, and live with the stiffness when I play sitting.

I don't think I've seen a sunburst pedal before that was done with actual paint.

[sir_modulus]

Hey Fretwire and dadude,

I've been following your discussion for quite a bit now, and am a bit dissapointed at you (dadude) for not seeing FretWire's point here. You see, in a wah pedal (and this is good for everyone to learn):

(and btw, I'm just resaying all that's been said, and maybe chiming in a bit.)

You've got a potentiometer. Now first off, a wah pedal (in i'ts simplest form (read Geo's tech of a wah pedal (good read))), is like an LC filter ( like an RC filter, but the tonal qualities of this one are a bit different..). Now the reason why this is significant is that a lot of poeple (I'm sure you two know this...) think the wah pedal is a RC circuit, where the resistance is used alongside the inductance, and well in this case, the circuit is not very sensitive to the value of the pot. Now the problem is, the first part of the circuit acts as a variable cap, and well the problem is right here. The resistance (variable (wah pot)) is a crucial component, and changes the value greatly, and that's why it is so important, it's not it's value ALONE that affects the circuit, but also it's interaction with the other parts...

Now I'm sorry Dadude, but FretWire is quite right here. HotPotz 1 have a taper that is similar but different from the Icar taper. The fact is that, Crybaby's have a different throw, and the total resistance of the pot is more (I believe the crybaby's have a smaller throw...). Now what happens here, is that the pots have a similar taper, but for different values.... like a 100k log pot and a 150k log pot. Now in my example here, the pots have the same taper, but they are not in a wah pedal. When you calculate the throws, and the total resistance, you find that not much of the pot is used. You (Dadude) have just calculated the pots as if they were being used to their full extent, but this is not the case. When you examine the actually used bit of the pot in both pedals, you'll find the tapers quite different.

This is really hard to do by hand, so the only logical way to do this is just to get the same pedal, the same board, the same everything, and just use one pot after another. This will show you what FretWire means. As a general, the Vox pedals have a much more full sweep, and it'll show that in the taper. The dunlops try to cheap out by having a larger resistance pot and having a sharp taper in the used area to get a large range of resistance out of it (this is particularly shown in the Jimi Hendrix model..) The result is a sound that is often well....carppy (to my ears..), like in the JH pedal, it's just too bassy, then all of sudden too trebley, and no nice sweep inbetween (and yes Hendrix did have a nice midrange sweep with his wah.).

So, as you can see the tapers are in fact different, but it was very hard to know this. I commend you, Dadude, for bringing the issue up, as it is always good to know the right answer, but you really should be a bit less  ignorant, when it comes to someone telling you their opinion. In regards to the pots and which one is better? Well it completely depends on the circuit. For some Boards, the Hot Potz 1 sounds terrible, and in others, it sounds amazing, and same with various other brands..(yes, I'm looking at you Mr. Northwest Pro pot....mutter....messing up my phoenix wah....stupid pot...mutter...).

Hope that helps and clarifies some doubts,

Nish

[Gilles C]

:lol:  You're right. I got mixed in my memories  :oops:

The real story: At first, after reading the specs on the net, I decided on a Vox 847. But I wanted to try one first.

Then, the first guy told me he didn't have any Vox wah left in store, only Dunlop's. So the 95Q became my newer choice because I wanted one BEFORE Xmas if possible. The rest of the story is ok...  :wink:

I just ordered some pots from BG Micro. I will have to cut the original wires going to the pot through a plug to solder them directly to the new pot, but it won't be a problem. As log as the value is the same. And the owner never heard it with a good pot, he got it cheap because of that.

Thanks for the info about the adjustments. I will go try one next year... in 2005.

I don't think I've seen a sunburst pedal before that was done with actual paint.

Cool! I hope to be the first one... You"ll get the credit for the idea  

[dadude]

Hey sir_modulus-

I'm not saying either of you are wrong. This post dates back to a post put up a long time ago.
The point about the taper difference in the used part of the sweep has been noted by myself and the next time I mod a wah were someone wants a Fulltone pot in it I will go deeper in my resistance checks. Yes my test was for the full range of the pot.
The point you both are missing from the original post is that I modded this VOX 847 to exact original Clyde McCoy specs, based off original VOX Clyde McCoy values from one that I had in my store. I realize that you can tweak the values of the circuit to make the sweep sound better. Cool. You can also tweak a stock VOX 847 to sound pretty damn good too. But Fulltone claims that their Clyde wah is a VOX Clyde McCoy circuit. Well all said their pot seemed designed for their circuit. In a Clyde circuit it just was dead sounding as a number of people agreed in the first post.

but you really should be a bit less ignorant, when it comes to someone telling you their opinion

I know this must be your opinion of me in this post, but this is really the subject of an old post. Fret Wire was answering posts and it seemed he was not reading what others had said. The whole of that post was about the differences of these two pots in an original Vox Clyde McCoy circuit. The Hot Potz I sounded great in this circuit with out any value changes. If you get a chance to look under the hood of a Fulltone Clyde their values are different than the original VOX Clyde McCoy. My guess is that's why their pot sounds great in their wah-wah.  That's all I was saying.