Stomp switch reliability

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Does it matter how you stomp on a switch?
I would imagine that if you kind of gently press from directly above, the switch will last longer than if you crash down on it from a 45 deg angle.
But, I don't know.. anyone in a band know of peopel who are "hard on their switches"?
(I remember when i was a kid some mothers would complain their kids were "hard on their shoes".. not me, i was a 'goody two shoes :oops: )

[MartyMart]

I think that you can "stomp too hard" on a switch, I tend not to, but in a show where you have to make a fast change . . . .
Angled enclosures, ie: Ibanez type of "slope" would seem to put less stress on the switch than a hammond box, as with these you seem to come at them from an angle, against the side of the switch, if you get me?
In particular when "raised" on a pedal board's second level.

I've just bought some "Hair force one" boxes, which have that "slope" so we'll see how they react.

Marty.

[petemoore]

Hitting it the same way every time might have an exponentially small impact on switch life, however the way they're built with one cylinder inside the other to keep the plunger vertical, and stops for top and bottom of plunger throw, it probably is hard to wear one out prematurely by hitting it from an angle...of course eventually the cylinder would wear, and whether the dust or whatever particlulates that produces could hold a charge or discharge into the signal path, or even if they'd be prevented from getting into the switch contact area is a mystery to me.
 Anyone seen cutaway views of the inside of a DPDT Stompswitch or know what it's like in there?

[MartyMart]

 Anyone seen cutaway views of the inside of a DPDT Stompswitch or know what it's like in there?

I had one "snap off" on me when attatching it to an enclosure !
It was a small DPDT "Alpha" switch, they are not the best quality, even at 8 bucks a piece !!
Then I discovered "arons blue" 3DPDT's and all is well.
The "Alpha's" have a small black body and a shaft which attaches to the body via a metal "Wrap" a bit like a pot back, ( thet are all kind of like this ) however it seems to be thin and brittle, so a bit of "over tightening" and BOOM !  broken switch.
The "momentary" version of these are used in "T-Rex" pedals !  not a good sign !.
The three others I've used seem OK, and I'm gentle on them now.
Are there any real "High Quality" 3DPDT's ?   ie" are the "fulltone" ones any better than arons, they are like three times the price !!
The old Carlins "X-Wing" seem like the most robust available to me.

Marty.

[Torchy]

crp

[bioroids]

Hi!

I bought a few years ago some stomp switches from Small Bear - only the Carling lasted 'till today. The other 5 switches were cheaper 'bedroom giging' types and were too sensitive to soldering heat because they're made of plastic on the inside. They just lasted a few months

I'm now switching ( ) to the switch actuator/microswitch combination. Of course this isn't true bypass, but I dont really care about that either. In any case the momentary switch will always last longer because is a much simpler device.

Luck!

Miguel

[Nasse]

I only have "aged" knowledge about this

I have ruined one switch by tightening the bottom screw too tight against the switch body. It was not engineered to be used so :oops:

In the 70´s *very* thick wooden shoes were popular. A very nice fellow with such shoes and somebody had taken few beers to the rehearsal room, stomped on my Fuzz-Wah with those high wooden shoes and the Fuzz Tone Change switch was in two pieces. No hard feelings, I could fix it then. But maybe it was 45 degrees and those shoes. I have never had such shoes, maybe I should buy if I find those...

Very famous british boutique pedal maker Pete Cornish used to mount a plywood ring around switch so the sideways torque and possibility for breakage was minimised.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Nasse,thanks for the Pete Cornish hint! it backs my suspicion that lateral forces on a stomp switch are BAD.

[cd]

You might try a search, I vaguely remember Mark Hammer posting one of his trademark big long posts on this subject, especially in reference to the PC "ring around the switch" thing.

[Eric H]

Very famous british boutique pedal maker Pete Cornish used to mount a plywood ring around switch so the sideways torque and possibility for breakage was minimised.

Beat me to it, Nasse ;-)
Those rings not only minimised sideways movement, but limited the maximum depth of travel  --very--  clever.
I've only seen these on his big boards (like Gilmour's) probably because they aren't very good looking. Something similar could be easily done in aluminum with a bit of thought.

-Eric

[Mark Hammer]

Since I'm one of those folks who constantly make remarks about "it's not the switch, it's how you use it", I guess I should chime in.

First off, there ARE differences in switch quality, and sometimes I suppose even between batches of the same switch.  Certainly feel differences can be very noticeable, but of course the feel is not the same thing as the integrity of the contact made.  In many instances, these differences will probably not make all that much of a difference.  It's a bit like car tires.  If all you do is pull out of the driveway, and pick up the kids from hockey/soccer practice or drive to the mall at 50km/hr, then the perceptible difference between cheapest-you-could-find-at-Walmart tires and most-expensive-in-town tires is likely to be negligible.  The differences will likely emerge when (have mercy on me because the pun was just sitting there waiting) the rubber hits the road.  

Of course even there, the rubber may not hit the road all that often.  For a great many of us, few, if any, of the stompswitches we buy and install will ever, and I mean EVER, come near challenging their rated switch life of tens or even hundreds of thousands of switching actions.  That's not to say the rating itself is not derived from a test that does not reflect real-world use, but the switches are rated to have a LONG life, and many vintage pedals have proven this expectation to be justified.

I think one of the aspects of switches that does not receive much attention is the lever-like aspect in wich they are used.  A wee bit of high school physics tells me that the pressure applied, when I'm pushing here and expecting movement there, is a function of the length of the lever.  The longer the lever, the more pressure is applied.  With stompswitches, there is a small bit of play between the actuator you step on, and the threaded collar around it.  The actuator can act like a piston, going only up or down, but it can also act like a lever, depending on the amount of play.  The switch actuator is *designed* to function best as a piston, and forcing it to function like a lever places stress on the internal components and general structure.  I would imagine that constant lever-like functioning may also have the effect of distending the upper part of the threaded collar over time, which increases the play around the actuator and the likelihood that lever-like functioning will start to occur more and more.  I'm sure a great many of you have stompswitches that are 20 years old or more, and have noticed the considerable amount of lateral play around the actuator that such switches can often have.  I'm similarly confident they didn't start out that way.

In some respects, the extent to which it acts like the one vs the other will depend on how MUCH play there is, but it will also depend on the angle that the striking force (the foot in this case) approaches from.  If one pushes down at the "perfect angle", the actuator ought to function ONLY as a piston.  Approaching from any angle other than straight down introduces lever like action.  In turn, the angle of approach is partly dictated by the manner in which the switch location and height dictate the use of the thing that will press the switch, namely your foot.

Since the pedal itself will be in front of the user, and since the user can't simply magically hover over the pedal and step straight down.  There is almost always some risk of lever-like action.  Most users pivot on their heel and step on a switch as if moving a wah rocker forward.  If the top of the switch is at any appreciable height, that means the foot has not completed the full arc before it hits the top of the switch.  Again, in a perfect world, if your pedals were built into a floor such that only the small portion of the actuator that needed to move was protruding up from the floor level, when you brought your foot down as you pivot,  your foot would be only a few degrees off perfectly perpendicular to the switch and the actuator would be pressed straight down.

This perfect world can be partly mimicked by using a sloped front case.  If having the foot perpendicular to the top of the actuator is what matters, then skewing the angle of the actuator to be at 90 degrees to the foot when the foot "arrives" should fix that.  

And I suspect it can, with a few niggling, but important details.  First off, there is the small matter of the chassis.  Where the switch sits on the chassis surface can determine whether the foot is even allowed or encouraged to approach the switch at an angle that makes a perfect 90 degrees.  I, for one, would be curious to know from Carl Martin pedal users whether they have experienced any switch issues.   Of course it may be the case that the price of these boxes includes the cost of a top quality switch, but it is also true that the height of the boxes makes it difficult to step on the switch at any sort of "orthodox" angle.  I also know that sticking the switch right next to the edge/sidewall of a pedal also tends to discourage optimal switch approach by my feet, partly because one risks having an unsecured pedal "squirt out" from under your foot.

Then there is the issue of height adjustment.  Understandably, ofttimes the  inner nut of the switch is adjusted to bring have more of the switch sticking out of the chassis so that the rear plate doesn't short out or so that jacks can fit in a cramped space or whatever.  In many respects, the higher the "altitude" of the switch actuator top, the greater the likelihood that lever-like action will occur simply because a switch pointing straight up AND higher is less likely to encounter a foot coming straight down at 90 degrees.

This is all the very long way of saying that I for one am not going to make any pronouncements of any kind regarding the quality and reliability of switch brand A vs B until such time as I am confident that I am NOT looking at differences in reliability under very different conditions of use.  I suppose I will not expect the consistency and durability from a switch that costs four 2004 dollars, as opposed to twelve 1987 dollars, but you know I've got stuff with non-Switchcraft jacks from 1970-whatever that still work pretty damn good despite many pluggings and unpluggings, so I don't see why cheaper switches should be any different under MY conditions of use.

[zachary vex]

in 10 years of making pedals, i've never had anyone return a pedal for repair because of a switch that was obviously worn out.  i have certainly replaced a large number of carlings, but i attribute this to their move to Mexico where quality control simply vaporized.  inside these switches, the grease changed thickness and color no less than 3 times in one year of manufacture...  it's as if they were pumping them full of whatever they could find.  one of the contacts was wiggly and loose on most of the switches that i got from carling, so that eventually it would make dodgy contact with the roller "pole" inside.  i assume that years ago when the switches were being made here the alignment of the pins to the body of the switch was important to somebody.

to help lengthen the life of any switch, be sure to use an internal nut so that undue stress isn't placed on the switch body.  also, don't mount switches so close to the wall of the enclosure that tightening the switch's nut causes sideways stress on the switch body because it's squeezed against the wall.  that's one sure way to failure.

[Johnny Guitar]

I've enjoied this thread since I made the mistake (about 20 years ago) of building a switching box with rather cheap switches only to have one fail on me at gig. I replaced them with Carlings but since that time I'd always assumed that electronic switching would take over.

I'm surprised that even the smaller compaies (like Frostwave and Zvex) haven't gone to electronic swithches while using a micro-switch (or something like that) as the human/mechanical interface (actuator). It seems like it would be cheaper and you could build a little daughter board with an LED indicator and mutliple switching options when needed.

I guess I'm wrong again! :oops:
John

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

I'm surprised that even the smaller compaies (like Frostwave and Zvex) haven't gone to electronic swithches while using a micro-switch (or something like that) as the human/mechanical interface (actuator). It seems like it would be cheaper and you could build a little daughter board with an LED indicator and mutliple switching options when needed.John

I certainly would if i had my time over again. And a latching relay.
But don't underestimate the incredible expense of trying to make say 200 switch assemblies like that. Cool for 20,000 or so... but it is wildly difficult for small numbers.Cant see how to make the metal parts from off-the-shelf either. Even die cast won't hack it for this application, so...
At least, anyone with a broken switch (or anything else) on one of my boxes gets a free replacement. As long as I live.

[Dai H.]

footswitch protector thing--someone has thought of one already:

http://www.pacifix-ltd.com/product/providence/psp1000.html