I have great boxes, when do you know when to start selling

[mojotron]

Sorry this is a long post - I hope someone here has some experience to add here...About me... I started customizing amps, guitars and stomp boxes 22 years ago - only when needed though - not full time until I got into this mode of building all of my equipment a few years ago (strat, amp, and to replace priceless pedals I pawned to pay tuition in the '80s...) . Music and awesome tone have always been the motivating factor for my experiments. I actually got so interested in audio circuits that after high school I worked as an electronics tech for a few years and eventually got a BSEE degree and have been working as an engineer for a many years now.

I have been building/experimenting with stomp boxes more and more the last few years, getting back to what started me down this path many years ago. In fact I didn't realize until about 6 months ago that there were so many interested in the same things...

My latest projects are not revolutionary, although a bit more directed than most mods/cookbook projects I have seen. I have some refinements that take an original idea to the next level and increase the quality and authenticity of the tone by reducing the design to small signal models and in some cases relying on some device physics to figure things out. And, after buying related pedals from other DIYers gone commercial, doing a lot of A/B sessions, reverse engineering everything I liked.. I really like what I have better than the best stuff I have heard - based on 30 years of playing with an unhealthy fascination with tone and decades of old-school tweaking/experimenting.

After working in lots of different engineering organizations, at a senior engineering level, doing product development, chasing financing, validating designs.... I have a good idea of what it takes to start a company, design for quality and maintain quality while scaling manufacturing to demand.... But, I am wondering about stomp boxes as a product...

What I'm wondering is what kind of market is out there for this stuff? Assuming what I have is unique enough to be clearly differentiated and have better than commercial quality.

How important is paint, or the paint-job, when you are trying to market a pedal? Really? The best stuff I have ever heard is boxed in an unpainted un-labeled box... Would this stuff sell like hotcakes if I powder-coated in 3 tones everything and used those fulltone knobs??

I noticed that most one-person operations I have seen selling boxes is either doing it part-time, or are selling services and spare parts as well - I wonder if this is because there is really more attainable income selling parts or doing mods to old pedals?

[smashinator]

I would say that visual appeal is important.  If it looks "cheap" it's going to be hard to sell for a lot of money unless you already have a stellar reputation from something.  Pedals are the sort of product that gets looked at, felt, hefted, bragged about.... The physical aspects are important to the end user.

I think most people who are selling pedals do it part time because it's a hell of a lot of work to sell enough pedals to make a real living at it.

For example, assuming your only overhead is your own wage (working in the basement, you already own all the gear you need...), how much do you need to make a week?  If you need to make $800 after taxes etc, you probably need to make around $1000 gross.  How many pedals do you have to sell to make $1000 after buying parts?  If you're making $100 off of each pedal, you need to sell 10 a week.  To sell 10 a week, you probably need to spend the majority of your day on the phone and computer as well as going out to show off your pedals to music stores.  Then you have to spend your evening building the pedals.  How long will it take you to build the 10 pedals you need to sell?  Better make some coffee.  Plan on working LONG LONG hours, and making a crap wage.  But, if you love doing it, what's the problem?

So, if you WANT to do it, and you've got a plan, GO FOR IT.  If you make it big, I will jump up and down for you.

[smashinator]

I would say that visual appeal is important.  If it looks "cheap" it's going to be hard to sell for a lot of money unless you already have a stellar reputation from something.  Pedals are the sort of product that gets looked at, felt, hefted, bragged about.... The physical aspects are important to the end user.

Oh for an edit button...

To elaborate on the above, Dumble can sell his amps that look like a kid's science project for huge money because it's a DUMBLE.  There's some guy (I can't remember his name) who makes effects in plain boxes with Sharpie lettering and sells them for big money, but he's got a name to go on.  The name alone probably makes the sale.  I'll bet you a nickel that Zvex wouldn't have gotten a second glance from the average joe when he started out if he didn't have awesome looking boxes.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

I personally havn't made much from my commercial boxes (although I have been able to help out some friends by giving them assembling work).
My feeling on the 'box finish' question is this:
98% of buyers don't know anythig about electronics, so they judge the reliability and 'expertness' of a fx box from the case. Unfortuntely, the case and finish are the most difficult and expensive parts, for a small scale operator.
As for selling a plain box covered in sharpie scrawls, I don't personally have anything aginst a box like that. But, in my experience, the only peopel who will buy a box like that are people who can trust their own ears, have heard the box, and know that no other box they have heard can do the job. You will only find a few people like that in your lifetime, probably.
Look at it this way.. consider a field you know nothing about ..maybe this is refrigeration! and think, if you had to buy a refrigerator.. you would only buy one made from raw srap steel, if you knew the builder personally or if he had a huge rep in your circle. For sure no store will sell it.
I would never discourage anyone from making & selling boxes, the more the better! and when the $US goes down further (it will!) then it gets more viable for US builders. But, remember, the things that make it 'fun' to do your own box, are the things you CAN'T do when you get into quantity production. Trying to go commercial, means you are on the phone al thetime trying to find parts, trying to pay for parts, hassling metal work places, arguing with the post office and UPS, trying to get stuff into shops, trying to get shops to pay for the boxes (dont get me started!), trying to convince customers that the box isn't broken, replacing it if it is. The least of the time you spend, is designing cool new fx :x  :cry:
Oh, did i mention govt paperwork?? :x  :x  :x  :x  :x

[Jason Stout]

Trying to go commercial, means you are on the phone al thetime trying to find parts, trying to pay for parts, hassling metal work places, arguing with the post office and UPS, trying to get stuff into shops, trying to get shops to pay for the boxes (dont get me started!), trying to convince customers that the box isn't broken, replacing it if it is. The least of the time you spend, is designing cool new fx Mad Crying or Very sad
Oh, did i mention govt paperwork?? Mad Mad Mad Mad Mad

Eeeeeeewwww!
Paul, you make it sound like WORK!

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

[Eeeeeeewwww!
Paul, you make it sound like WORK!

Well, it is! but, there is the upside, whihc more than compensates: visiting this forum & meeting (sometimes in person but usually via the net) peopel who are Stompbox Crazy

The best advice I can give, whether people are thinking of going commercial or not, is to read Analog Man's Guide to Vintage Effects. Plenty of personal stuff there.
Most businesses aren't like you might imagine.. liking beer doesn't qualify anyone to run a pub, for example. The big problem with stompboxes, is that anyone with the necessary skills to make $$ from boxes, could probably make $$$$$$$ doing something else!

As for 'work'.. when i want to relax, i go & work at book cataloging. Or help renovate a friends house. Or move furniture. Plus the money helps prop up the 'business'!

[puretube]

http://diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=28476

[Mark Hammer]

A visit to the MusicToyz website, and gaze at the list of pedals they carry, will convince you of two things: a) *anybody* can make pedals, b) the only way to make a go of it in the oversaturated market is to have something truly different and a clientele that *needs* it.  It may also, I suppose, convince you that there is an infinite clientele for distortion pedals or that if one wants to make a line of pedals one should perhaps have *A* fuzz just to flesh out the line, but devote one's attention to things that aren't just another fuzz with the same superlatives crammed into the ad copy.

I suppose the other thing you need to think about is whether it makes you happier to produce something new and different each time, or whether it makes you happier to keep a fixed product line going and reach a broader market with it.  I don't know about you, but it'd drive me stark raving bonkers if the business side of things prevented me from getting back to the bench, or if I had to spend hours and hours addressing the same technical questions about the same products.

Of course, what you do doesn't have to be large scale to provide enjoyment or income.  A buddy in town sells his line of pedals (largely improved clones of known hot items) through one of the city's vintage outlets, where they seem to sell well, as well as through MusicToyz and a few other places.  Of course, he has the luxury of a full-time job as well, so while a couple thousand in sales here and there is terrific, mortgage, car insurance, and the kids' clothes are paid for by something more substantial and reliable.

Occasionally, though, such cottage industries do take off and become more substantial.  Small Bear Electronics started out as something Steve Daniels wanbted to do for other DIY-ers, given his proximity to good supplies of needed parts.  Bit by bit, this part-time thing started to consume his spare time and apartment until early in 2004 the revenue from commercial clients he had acquired made it possible for Steve to confidently say "adios" to his day job and the health plan it came with.  Of course, the caveat is that Steve is in a rather privileged position because he has instant market research via this forum.  Even though it is possible to say "I've got a line on such and such a chip, who needs one?", I doubt whether any serious pedal-maker could ask folks here "If I were to make a pedal that did *this*, how many of you would honestly buy one or more?".

I guess the best advice is to start small, start locally, build a following and reputation (even if it means hanging around the stage entrance and shoving a well-labelled - i.e., your contact info inside the chassis - freebie pedal into the hands of a touring star's tech).  Like Paul, I would also recommend reading some of the "How I got started" parts in the various pedal-related books.  Analog Mike's has some of that.  The recent Dave Hunter Book has some 60 pages of it, and Art Thompson's book "Stompbox" from a few years ago also has the stories of many of the major manufacturers.  They all tend to have a bit of useful insight into what allowed a business to take off, and how the various makers eventually found their niche and claimed it.

[mojotron]

Wow - I should have joined this forum a while ago - everyone's wisdom on this is greatly appriciated!!! All are great points.. I'll have more questions, I'm sure..  I'm thinkin' now that I just need to keep making the small steps - I'm building an inventory, making a www site and have talked to local shops.

It's interesting that some would view the market as saturated... Actually, saturation does not occur until prices are impacted and there is some comoditization of avalible products - and I don't see that happening. I mean, people can still sell a Ge fuzz face copy for $200 in a shop ($150 on line).. which is good because I had to go through at least a 1000 Ge transistor pairings before I found the right two that sounded right and were avalible via mouser - not to mention countless experiments with anything with 3 leads and going through the obligatory opamp comparisons.

I guess I need to learn to paint and buff too:lol: Actually, I have a son that is as crazy about this stuff as I am and needs a job - I'm going to buy that kid a mask and some krylon!!

After going through a couple of irons I've perfected the iron-on fuser technique for single sided boards - this is arduous if I try to make like 10 at a time though - do a lot of smaller commercial sellers still make their own boards?

Is there a better - less painful - way to make cheap boards?

[smashinator]

I guess I need to learn to paint and buff too:lol: Actually, I have a son that is as crazy about this stuff as I am and needs a job - I'm going to buy that kid a mask and some krylon!!

Is there a better - less painful - way to make cheap boards?

http://www.futurlec.com/PCBService.shtml Let them make your boards, they can make them cheaper than you can if you factor in the value of your time.

As for the paint: read up on how to paint and how to do it safely.  If you're going to be spraying paint all over the place, fumes will become a real problem.  Good clear coats are CRAZY toxic.  I suggest searching the forum over at //www.airbrush.com.  A great many of them are automotive painters, and TONS of people ask about how to paint safely.

Gosh we're helpful.  We're going to get massive discounts on your pedals, right?  :wink:

[Mark Hammer]

A buddy of mine in town makes limited run clones and improvements of some classic pedals and is doing nicely, selling them at MusicToyz and elsewhere.  He gets his boards made for him by a company that has them made in China.  The drummer of my old band from 30 years ago is now the manager of a large commercial PCB house - http://www.milplexcircuit.com/indexhome.html - that you may want to try for some prices.

One of the nice things about the commercial places is that they will also be capable of doing double-sided plate-through stuff, as well as all the silk-screening.  You may THINK you don't need double-sided boards, but it provides a number of advantages, including nice ground planes, as well as boards which are small enough to permit many different devices to be built on the same basic layout while still maintaining a convenient size for a small enclosure like a 1590B.

[puretube]

Sir Mark: would you mind letting me know the source in China,
your buddy is using for having PCBs made?
Or is that the milplexcircuit-company, of your old drummer?

(no hurry on this one...)

Wish You success @ school...

[Peter Snowberg]

If you're going to build on a commercial scale, it sure helps to know what you're in for.

This utility will tell you if you stand to make a profit from selling a given number of units at a given construction cost. It's very easy to loose your shirt. :|

Best of luck to all pedal builders.


BTW: I'm going to move this post into the regular forum so it doesn't go away.

[drewl]

What you need to do is get some famous established artist to endorse your product- good luck-
or find an up and coming band that likes your stuff, if they get as big as the beatles every kid will want your pedal
or you could take all your money and go to Vegas!

[O]

I think probably the biggest obstacle is finding manufacturers for the various components. If I was to start a pedal shop I would probably want a custom made enclosure and some high quality parts (switches, jacks, battery compartments, etc).

Of course, the people that know where to get enclosures, switches, etc done won't tell (understandably so)

Sometimes I wish I would have gotten a different degree so that I would understand schematics and everything it takes to make a better pedal.
(Oh and borrowing layouts for commercial use is a no-no, mmkay? )

[mojotron]

Gosh we're helpful.  We're going to get massive discounts on your pedals, right?  :wink:

Absolutely! Let me know if you are interested in prototypes - right now I'm distributing those in 4x4 electrical boxes - which are indestructible! The electronics in the base overdrive (OD) and Fuzz circuits have not changed in a while, I say they are prototypes because I am still working out enclosure details as well as the feasibility of using up to 6 knobs where other pedals have at most 4. So, if I decide to go with 6 knobs, I can add the rest of the circuit that adds a lot to the value of the pedal. My friends always get stuff for nearly what it takes to make and ship - especially if they can give me feedback on it:D

Since this is an OT area - I'll elaborate.... Not that I have seen anything I would consider questionable on the boutique pedals I have bought over the last few years, but the one thing I do differently from what I have seen done elsewhere, from buying a lot of other pedals and reverse engineering everything including aspects of production (not to copy - but to learn), is that I concentrate more on noise and transparency of tone... so I solder in an area that is as much like a "clean room" as I think I need and use techniques that give me the cleanest solder connection. I also have spent a lot of time and money on finding components that I like - for instance I like the sound of a 25v polarized cap over that of a large film cap of certain brands because, despite the dielectric absorption of the polarized stuff, the film caps seem to do too good of a job for some applications..... Of course, customers probably don't care about my obsession with noise/tone...., but I think you have to be obsessed with quality to be truly proud of your work. I might not sell a lot of stuff due to pricing... but I don't think I really want to think about volume right now - mostly due to the understanding of this I'm getting right here.

I have a few projects in the works and they are more of a departure from the norm. But, the truly differentiated designs are higher risk and require me to get feedback from others - so in a couple of months I'm going to be looking for some help there - the stuff that is truly prototypical I will send out for just about the price of shipping + a few bucks to a small number of qualified people that can give me some good - confidential - feedback - and for some I'll send out free and even pay for their time - but these are guys I know and have worked with on these. This may be a few months from now - but so far I just have some local players committed to this - let me know if you want to be on the list.

Currently close to finished designs:
The OD is a bit of a spin on something like an one of the high quality TS copies - like the world needs another one..., but the main design differentiator there is to have total control to shape the pre-distorted sound as well as clip/sat schemes... I pulled out my grad school projects on active filtering on this one, and it's been a lot of fun as there are a lot of surprises when it comes to the internals of opamps and which are really described correctly on their data sheets... I like it just because it does not sound like your using a pedal, not tube-like really...but more like amp-like overdrive... and it is extremely flexible and when it gets mean like a dimed BF Deluxe Reverb... I'm kind of shooting for an Allen Haynes sound on one end and a '70s Billy Gibbons sound on the other. Which is not a function of the amount of distortion, but rather the character of the distortion... The idea here is not a volume product, but an OD pedal that could be used on 6th street in Austin without being ashamed as most of the guys I've seen go streight into an amp and then play at incredable volume levels.

The fuzzes really have 2 uses, trying to cover each equally - both as a boost/OD and as a fuzz... As the circuit is roughly like most fuzzes with a few extra knobs - the aspect that I was going for here was to "recreate" the fuzz that I have been tweaking for a while - which works great as a fuzz, but it is the best boost I have ever used. And, to do that well the component selection is really critical and you have to throw out the usual fuzzface design assumptions - especially about transistors. So here again - nothing revolutionary here either - except that a working musician may appreciate a more modern FF with the same sound as the noisy+trempermental+fragile+expensive ones that can also perform some nice subtle things too. Also, I think fuzzes are still a valid product line and I see a spot for a product somewhere between the ZVex and Fuller fuzzes.

Up and coming I am working on more of the classic stuff - vibs, phasers, splitters, and several distortion ideas - of which I have one's that I and some friends use - but I need to make versions that would be cost effective to sell and have less than 10 knobs. Packaging ideas - like the way Visual Sound does their stuff and then on the horizon putting together combos that give you classic sounds - like an EJ or Satriani or Holdsworth or the generic death sound in a box - all analog - making some sounds easier to dial in....

So, I think my over all approach to this is not to try to do volume, not to directly copy stuff that worked for others, but also to not try to be better at making the same box or focus on being more original than what is already out there.. What I would like to do is to just productize the stuff that I made for myself because I didn't like what was out there or couldn't get the sound I wanted. If your interested in prototypes send me an email for details at:

mojotronics@hotmail.com

What is the likelyhood of the world embracing an OD with 6-8 useful knobs?

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Of course, the people that know where to get enclosures, switches, etc done won't tell (understandably so)

My boxes: Catten Industries.
My screenprinting: Action CircuitBoard and Screeprinting.
My PCBs: Melbourne Printed Circuits.
All in Melbourne Asutralia.
Are they the cheapest? possibly not.
Are they the best? possibly. They get it right.

Components: everywhere, including Steve.

[MartyMart]

Your design ideas and attention to "tone" detail sound great to me, I have to agree that the "Look" is going to be important, as most folks buy with their "eyes" even when its an "ears" product !! ( I've done it too yes ! )
I would love to do the same, but I'm a couple of years away from commercial "building" yet, my "Mods" and "Hotrodding" of commercial pedals is starting to take off, i've had a lot of great responses to them and now have a very "High end" guitar/repair shop outlet...... the first and only one so far !
It wont pay the mortgage just yet though.
The finishing and decals on an enclosure are the hard part for me, very easy to "mess up" and just too many noxious fumes for my liking !
If I ever get into that more seriously, then they would be sent off to a paint shop for all the main covering.
Best of luck with it and if you need an opinion from the UK, I've got a wicked set of "ears" ! :wink:

Marty.
www.martinlister.com

[runmikeyrun]

I have a couple skateboard shops.  Skateboards are all basically the same save for minor differences in the concave and widths.  The graphics and names are what sells the boards.  I believe it is the same for pedals.

Good marketing of your boxes is about 75% of the sell.  With that marketing comes things like advertising but most pedals sell based on three things:  The name of the product, the graphics on the product, and the description of what the product does.  Like someone else was saying, most people aren't going to know which chip is which or even which pedal you cloned (especially if it's more than 10-15 years old and has been out of circulation for a while) but are going to go solely on the impression they get from the name and graphics.  If you have an amazing box and call it "the fuzz" it might not attract as much attention as something called "ass ripping fuzz from hell".  First you have to catch the customers attention by the name and if there's pictures, by the graphics.  Without catching their eye it doesn't matter how good of a product you have because they never stopped to check it out.  Then you have to back up your product with a good description, testimonials, and then sound samples.  Show your credibility (for the pedal nuts who want to know why they should buy from you) and you're good to go.  And of course, having good pedals helps, as the thing that's going to perpetuate your business in a cottage industry like this is word of mouth.  It'll start slowly but once it gets going you'll have a snowball effect.  There's more than quite a few custom amp and pedal manufacturers who will tell you that within the span of a year they went from a part time job to being backordered by 6 weeks and/or opening up an real operation.

Hope that helps.

[ryanscissorhands]

I've thought about this a lot. Not because I could go commercial (I struggle with the beginner project  :shock:  ) but because I've thouhht about what it would take.

First off, doing JUST pedals is not possible until you have a large market to seel your pedals to. Starting off and trying to do it as a living is like trying to power a country using ONLY wind power: wind power is awesome, and free, and environmentally friendly. However, if the wind dies down, so does everything else--it's too unreliable.

However, as long as wind power is used along side a more reliable source of money, err. . . "energy," then it increases the cost effeciency and other yummy benefits. (By the way, I think I'm enjoying this analogy a bit too much. . .)

Ok, as for graphics. Yes, a cool-looking pedal is key. Sadly. If people are buying rare/custom effects, they want other people to see it and say, "woah, where'd you get that cool pedal." Pride has always been a part of being a guitarist(again, sadly). However, YOU also want others o ask your customers about your pedals. If I saw the ZVEX SeekTrem at a show, I'd inquire about it. Because, well, it's sexy. Plus, idiots like me are attracted to blinking LED's anfd such.

As for basic paint, something I woulD STRONGLY SUGGEST is finding a nice person who owns a decent-sized autobody shop. Someone who would go through quite a number of cars in a given week. Try to make a deal where you leave some pedals around until they happen to have to paint something that color, so that they only have to do a quick spray, and don't have to prep/clean hoses for a few small pedals. That way, they often give you a sweet deal.

I knew a guy whose guitar store in eastern Canada did that with guitars--primed them, and said, "whenever you are painting a metallic red, give these a spray." Made it cost effecient, and damn, where else are you going to get cheap, nice-looking, durable paint like excess autobody paint?

This is all I can think of. If I get any other ideas, I'll share them, because I would really like you to do well with this, to whatever scale you decided to become more serious about pedal building. Good luck (and I actually mean it)!