Behringer rips off Boss and Electro-Harmonix!

[StephenGiles]

Hard though it may be to accept, I believe the manufacturing centre of the world is now the far east. Frankly, if I have time in Buenos Aires (which I doubt due to our tight schedule) to look in a couple of guitar shops and I see Behringer digital delays selling for $25 I'll buy 3, because that's half the price they'll be in London!
Stephen

[brad]

If you think Behringer is doing something wrong, please, save yourself some heartache and never, ever go into business.

[Ge_Whiz]

Truth is, some Stratocasters with the word "Fender" legitimately printed on them are made in China. Guitar effects have rarely, if ever, been about getting the 'perfect' sound - they're about taking the sound you get and making it work for your genre of music, hence 'nasty' fuzz boxes and 'grungy' choruses.

If I can series three Behringer delay-type boxes for the cost of one, I might just discover new award-winning sounds that previously were denied to me. If they work in the studio, their hardiness on stage may not be an issue. And dodgy pcb-mounted jack sockets are a mod that I can cope with, even if the rest is epoxy-coated DSP chips.

Cheap effects will lead to innovative sounds, whatever the morals, you mark my words.

[loscha]

dodgy pcb-mounted jack sockets are a mod that I can cope with, even if the rest is epoxy-coated DSP chips.

Cheap effects will lead to innovative sounds, whatever the morals, you mark my words.

I'm with Ge_Whiz on this matter.
Yes, they are going to be cheaply made, Behringer make disposable equipment. I wouldn't be suprised if most of the behringer pedals turn out to be the exactly same DSP chip with different code on them, even the distortions. But is that actualyl such a bad thing?

I know that many of the people on this board are Analog all the way, with unkind things to say about digital equipment, I respect anyone's opinion.

I lead a digital existance. My synths are almost all digital, or at least Hybrids.  I'd rather a Dx7 than an analog anyday, but, that's just me and my academic sound synthesis passion.

It's going to be a very good thing for the kids out there, starting out, they're gonna be able to afford more equipment, and get access to a broader range of sounds earlier on. I wish I'd had cheap pedals when I was a lad. You can get a feel for sound experimentation, and then move on to better purer equipment when you get older.

I can't wait to be able to get a pedal for a little more than the cost of a top 40 CD.

bring it on!

[moogatroid2000]

Awesome! I think it's great! That is business after all. Besides am I the only one that thinks that EH sells cool designs, but are made with the shittiest parts on earth and are extremely overpriced?
:roll:

[mrsage]

NAMM:







As conjectured, they're made of plastic, with jacks PCB-mounted. But apparently they're pretty sturdy plastic...whatever that means.

[petemoore]

Well the board is just hard to work with because of the physical 'structure of the PS...a 2.5 foot line toa heavy enough transformer to pull the board off a table or wreck the PS jack, then enough wire [5 ft + er so] to the AC outlet.
 The effects can be worked with, mounting them so the jacks don't get stressed, I've seen plastic molded boards that do this, I don't know but think B makes them for this series? [expensive Addendums to overall cost usually]
 One can pretty easily make a pedal board that Holds the wires good enough to not pull the jacks out of the PCB's.
 IF they're digital, I can't see how they'd work anything like analog say you have three in series, that would be 3 D/A conversions and 3 A/D conversions.
 If they're analog...they're inexpensive.

[brad]

Holy crap!

AU$70 for the Big Muff clone?
AU$40 for the Acoustic Modeller?
AU$40 for the Tremolo?

COME TO PAPA  :shock:

If they are analog copies of the real deals, these things will sell like crazy!  I have a Rockson Super Overdrive that's an exact clone of a Boss SD-1 -right down to the layout- so I hope these things are like that!!

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Holy crap!
AU$70 for the Big Muff clone?
AU$40 for the Acoustic Modeller?
AU$40 for the Tremolo?
COME TO PAPA  :shock:

Don't worry Brad, the famous "double everywhere else" price will
apply in Australia as usual. Check Euro/USA/Oz prices for other Behrenger stuff.

[StephenGiles]

No, I said 3 in PARALLEL. That way if each is set to a different delay it would be possible to emulate the old tape echo sound like a Watkins Copicat and sound like Hank!
Stephen

[petemoore]

As far as 'cheep' Fuzzes go, I've been making them for 15-25 buxx for a long time now anyway...[minus the 'labor'], about the right price for a 'decent' ROTM Fuzz...whatever that is, they don't generally sound like a 'cheep Fuzz' though. It doesn't really take much to make a boost/fuzz guitar box.
 For a three knobber with paint, if analog...[if they have A/D and D/A converters in each unit, I'd be amazed if any relevant discussions of sound quality compared to their analog counterparts occurred] deftly cheeeeeap. Cheap almost beyond belief.
 Can't wait to read the review/inspection results. I can pretty much guess what the durability track record will be like.
 Even replacement warranties are no good when you're at a gig and your box cuts on.../off/onoff... off...on?

[Mark Hammer]

Interesting thread, and certainly an interesting catalyst to the market.

Possible spinoffs?

1) Increasing mystique about Boss and E-H originals, even of pedals that were ho-hum then and ho-hum now.

2) Stocks in patch cord companies skyrocket (invest now!).

3) Hunan becomes the heavy metal capital of the world, just ahead of Seoul.

4) Increased tolerance of nonmetal chassis by musician market.

5) Price changes by Boss and E-H (remember when Columbia Records invented their "nice price" line of recordings?)

6) Rocktek, Arion, and Rogue die a horrible painful death.

7) Behringer makes a Fuzz Factory and the ensuing best-of-7-falls no-holds-barred grudge match makes a small fortune on pay-per-view.

I think what I find most terrifying about all of this is that any company in the world can simply make up their mind to relocate to China and churn out cheaper goods because we want them to.  Why would anyone in the west bother to learn any technical skills ever again?  It's not like China is going to run out of hands to make such items.

Welcome to globalization.

[Fp-www.Tonepad.com]

Mark,

As usual your insight amazes me.

All 7 spinoffs are very possible and I wouldn't be surprised that all 7 would happen.

I can't wait to see the insides of those pedals.

[Ge_Whiz]

I'd love to have that NAMM wall display as my next pedalboard...

Maybe I'll be able to afford it, too!

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

I think what I find most terrifying about all of this is that any company in the world can simply make up their mind to relocate to China and churn out cheaper goods because we want them to.  Why would anyone in the west bother to learn any technical skills ever again?  It's not like China is going to run out of hands to make such items.Welcome to globalization.

I've seen plenty of companies that stopped manufacturing in US or Australia & got their stuff made in China.. but after a while, you see stuff "very much" like theirs coming from Chinese companies & then it is game over. You can't export manufacturing without exporting R&D.

It's been a bit like 'pass the parcel', manufacturing went USA to Japan to Taiwan to Korea to Thailand & now China, but I think it will stay in China! because they have such a large consumer base (potentially). There is always India, I suppose..

[Fp-www.Tonepad.com]

Made in China

[SeanCostello]

Wow. I was at NAMM on Friday and Saturday, and I totally missed this. Meanwhile, Boss/Roland had a display about the size of a football field, so I don't know if they are worried about the competition just yet. Electro-Harmonix, on the other hand, had a tiny little booth. Paul Perry's pedals had a nice little display, crammed in with some beautiful modular synths and a REAL Mellotron, tapes and all.

I wonder what DSPs the Behringer pedals use? I know they aren't from my employer, as they are 24-bit, which would suggest Motorola - or possibly a Motorola clone.  They must be getting the DSPs for DIRT cheap.

The Behringer site talks about their new headquarters opening up in Bothell, Washington. Which is just down the road from Woodinville, home of Mackie. Coincidence? I mean, it is not like that stretch of the Sammamish River valley is "Audio Alley" or anything...

Sean Costello

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Paul Perry's pedals had a nice little display, crammed in with some beautiful modular synths and a REAL Mellotron, tapes and all.

Hey, thanks for mentioning that Sean! I didn't know about it! must have been Roger Cordell from Big City Music from LA doing it.

[Mark Hammer]

Saw a comparatively recent book a few weeks ago called "The Mellotron Book".  Forgot the author's name.  Had a list at the back of every documented instance of a Mellotron on a recording, track by track.  Pretty extensive.

One of the things that ridiculously cheap products tend to do is to influence perception of higher end products.  When someone on this continent, or any other for that matter, attempts to produce small quantity "artisan" pedals, at the sort of prices required when a) you pay local rates for labour, b) you pay local prices for small quantity materials, c) you have to make back your personal financial shortfall during the initial living-in-my-girlfriend's-parents'-garage R&D period, we have tended to witness a certain resistant attitude among potential consumers on occasion.  At least here.

I'm not completely convinced that the is-that-all-that's-in-there attitude *necessarily* signals the death knell of a product line, but it certainly eats away at sales, profitability, and long-term viability.  But it's complicated at the same time.  It *happens* that contrasting prices can sometimes inflate the perception of something as being of greater quality, hence more desirable.  It also happens that trimming back production costs seriously impacts on product quality, making what is available at higher price seem even that much better quality (even though its *objective* quality has not changed).  However, other sorts of evolving consumer views occur too.  When the price difference between a large-manufacturer pedal and small-house pedal is not especially large, consumers may still conceive of  the pricier pedal as being something they want to save up for.  As the price-point gap gets larger, though, I suspect some simply mentally classify the higher-priced one as out of their reach.  For instance, I have personally turned any and all "name brand" guitars into something I can only afford should I win a lottery.  They are simply off the books.

Assuming artisan-pedal makers can sustain enough of a market of big money consumers (the Pete Cornish approach) then they remain in good shape and there is ongoing support for their innovations and ideas.  For me, though, the jury is still out on whether Behringer's venture will be good for them but bad for everyone else.

[mr_doyle]

I wonder what DSPs the Behringer pedals use? I know they aren't from my employer, as they are 24-bit, which would suggest Motorola - or possibly a Motorola clone.  They must be getting the DSPs for DIRT cheap.

it was told to me that Behringer use some custom made DSPs, so to avoid that someone else could eventually copy their designs!

D.