Behringer rips off Boss and Electro-Harmonix!

[casey]

think, people aren't even satisfied with normal pedal tone....how bad are these things gonna sound?Nish

Actually, at least 95% of the public are happy with the worst pedal in the world, so the answer is, they are sure to sound "good enough"!
In any case, I suspect that they will sound EXACTLY the same as what they are cloning. No more, no less.

so very well said paul....are you referring to the Big Muff Pi ?....that is the worst sounding pedal in my opinion......

[casey]

wow, look at this...:

http://www.spinguitar.com/itemeffects.asp

http://www.spinguitar.com/item.asp?gid=214

looks like boss and behringer are from the same chinese corp.

too funny.  :lol:

[SeanCostello]

According to MadeinChina.com, spinguitar is a "Professional musical instruments shop, including online sales, guitar/bass.effects/amps/drum user guide, online lessons, etc." So probably not a manufacturing facility.

Sean Costello

[Joep]

How are you guys so sure it digital modeling?

Especially the Tech21 clones are presented as analog modelers.

I guess simply copying an excisting design is cheaper than creating a digital model of it....

Bye,

Joep

[petemoore]

Digital IMO should be > D/A >everything you need/use >A/D >.
 IF single effects have a D/a and a/D converter before/after each process, I would think latency and other artifacts would increase.
 I find it hard to see them as digital for that reason...who knows?
 Someone is going to pop for one, then we'll know.
 Anyone know if these are listed at HC: user reviews?

[MartyMart]

I now have three of the "Line 6" stompers, crunchtone, tap tremolo and space chorus, all of which use digital "modelling" to produce their sound.
There is "zero" delay whilst playing through any/all of them at once !
thats three sets of A/D --D/A  !!
The first "POD" was awful, and had an audible delay which felt wierd to play through !
If Behringer are using the latest tech for these things then there should be no delay either.
Having said that, they are a quater of the price of the "Line 6" pedals !!!
Hmmmm  . . . . . .
Marty.

[The Tone God]

I would not find it hard to belive that a company would develop DSP technology where all they have to do is load whatever effect into an IC and slap it into a case that is "familiar" to unwitting musicians. On the other hand Behringer is not exactly known for their R&D so it could be questioned if they put that type of effort in.

Andrew

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

The springuitar mock crybaby at yen1650, if I am right, that means a wah case -  plus everything inside it - for $16 US or so.
So for anyone who wants a wah shell... :wink:
maybe I should start a cottage industry taking them apart & selling the components..

[SeanCostello]

I would not find it hard to belive that a company would develop DSP technology where all they have to do is load whatever effect into an IC and slap it into a case that is "familiar" to unwitting musicians.

Andrew

For the clones of the digital Boss pedals (delays, reverb), I am sure they are doing this. For the analog pedals, especially the distortions, I find this less likely. Nonlinear processing on a DSP burns a lot of cycles in order to avoid any aliasing of the generated harmonics. It is a lot cheaper to use an op amp plus a few diodes to get clipping - unless Behringer has DSP + codec prices under the cost of a dual opamp + diodes + caps.

As you point out, there is R&D involved for modelling. For an analog pedal, it is probably easier just to copy the existing circuit. For the digital circuits, they can't just copy the ROM, as that would be copyright restrictions (the circuit may not be patentable, but the algorithm code is definitely copyrighted). They might have reverse-engineered the digital pedals by looking at the ROM, monitoring traces on the circuit, all that high tech stuff.  Or, they might just have done a lot of listening to the pedals, and figured out what algorithms sound fairly close. My guess is that they have engineers in house with a fair degree of competence in designing reverbs, which would be the toughest digital pedals to emulate.

Sean Costello

[Torchy]

crp

[travissk]

Like many others have said, questionable business tactics, and shockingly low prices.

Many of those have potential... no one has mentioned the tuner yet. That, the reverb, and the delay all don't mention what they model after, so it's possible they used some algorithms they had developed from other products.

And finally,
http://www.behringer.com/FX100/index.cfm?lang=ENG
Phaser, flanger, chorus, pitch shifter, delay, trem - for $30. I'd bet they just used stuff from their rack effects line.

I've opened up a couple Behringer products (my V-amp 2 and my friend's Vritualizer Pro rack unit that needed repair), and I believe they both used TI DSPs. The Virtualizer's internal circuitry was pretty small - a micrcontroller, dsp chip, power circuitry, some encoders, and memory - and I thought they could take out the front panel and fit the whole thing inside a stompbox if they really wanted to. This FX100 might be something similar to that.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

I have to apologise, according to the Behrenger page the price of that phaser etc box is only about 30% higher in Australia! and less, if you include the various US state taxes.
Still, I'm yet to check with a local store..

[george]

Hi Paul

Venue Music in Sydney aren't stocking them yet - I checked.

According to the Behringer website, a Blues Overdrive (Boss BD-2 clone) will go for $AUD39.95 RRP including GST ...

a Boss BD-2 retails for $AUD259 list ...   :shock:

[petemoore]

That is the Question.
 I put my eggs in the analog basket, at least for the TS and DIST type units. I would think Digital would be the same or more expensive to produce...

[puretube]

imagine B*hr*nger being unable to find distributors because they got ethical/moral considerations...
:wink:

[StephenGiles]

:twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:
Stephen

[d95err]

It is a lot cheaper to use an op amp plus a few diodes to get clipping - unless Behringer has DSP + codec prices under the cost of a dual opamp + diodes + caps.

However, with analog technology, each pedal has to have a completely different design and components. Hardware design is a lot more expensive than software design.

A digital line of pedals can all have exactly the same PCB and components. The only difference will be the number knobs, the number of in- out jacks and the color and print on the box. That would result in a much cheaper production line, and much lower development costs.

My guess is that is the key to why Behringer can keep such low prices on the stompbox line.

[puretube]

:twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:
Stephen

:wink:  :wink:  :wink:

[puretube]

imagine B*hr*nger being unable to find distributors because they got ethical/moral considerations...
:wink:

...considerations that they probably won`t have with the hastily re-designed chassis of the "B*ss"-competition boxes...

[Kilby]

Just when you thought it was safe to ignore this topic.

This is just an observation not a critisism, as usial my internal editing has failed and is a bit long..

I have been away from pedals for a while, but I remember about this time last year many people where complaining about Boss pedals for being unoriginal, digital and not sounding very good, and basically not worth the money (I may have got the order wrong).

So what's wrong with behringer upsetting this state of affairs ?

Yet the attitude seems to have changed (in this thread).

I don't like (or dislike) behringer but would like to make this comment.

EH died a while ago and have been ressurected, they produce their classic pedals, but have not rested on their past and they are trying to bring new and interesting pedals to the market. Good luck to them

When was the last time you really desired a Boss pedal ?
It's been a long time hasn't it !

When was the last time that Boss brought a 'new' idea to the table. Well  the chorus pedal is probably most associated with Boss, but I don't know if the EH was first.

Hmm how about the digital pedals, that was done to reduce manufacturing cost (wasn't it), as everybody knew (even then) that real echos degraded, it wasn't certainly for a better product.

Last year I was looking for a nice phaser, I tried Boss but it was noisy and offered nothing useful, as I wanted a phaser that had good phasing not all those step modes (fun to playwith but not too useful).

In the absence of the EH SS (that's as common as hens teeth in Belfast), I went for the Ibanez, as it was affordable, adjustable (unlike Danelectro), and it sounded like a phaser should (if a little too restrained for my tastes), and was a much better price.

So Boss it's now time to pull the finger out and make something new and desireable. I want to have interesting new things, but Mr Boss you don't supply them these days.

I am interested to see what is in the new Behringer pedals, and how they sound, and I will be buying their delay to run alongside my DD6, and will enjoy being able to afford a wah (for the 1st time).

Berhinger may (or may not) have unpleasant business practices (most big companys do) don't judge till the product arrives.

Apparently these pedals arrived in the UK last week, and will be available for sale this week, I will be checking them out on Friday (hopefully).



Rob...