No, but really... true bypass or not...

[JimRayden]

Has anyone done an A/B test and recorded it? I'd like to hear what destroying effect the non-true bypass has on the sound.

Or can I just try it out by placing an 1M resistor between the clean signal of my guitar and ground?

The reason I'm asking this is that with the switch prices here in Europe, I would save alot by buying a single pole switches rather than a DPDT...

------------
Jimbo

[Gilles C]

Is that why I saw many projects using analog switches or miniature relays in French mags?

Even in hi-fi mags btw.
Gilles

[R.G.]

Or can I just try it out by placing an 1M resistor between the clean signal of my guitar and ground?

You can try it out by placing a 100K pot hooked up as a variable resistor between your signal and ground. At 100K, you won't lose much. At lower resistance values, like 10 to 20K, you lose a lot. You can't tell how much you'll lose in general because the effects you might be not true bypassing have varying input loading, and hence varying suckages on your tone.

Some have quite high input impedances and will not cause a problem at all. Some are low and intolerable.

[zachary vex]

Has anyone done an A/B test and recorded it? I'd like to hear what destroying effect the non-true bypass has on the sound.

Or can I just try it out by placing an 1M resistor between the clean signal of my guitar and ground?

The reason I'm asking this is that with the switch prices here in Europe, I would save alot by buying a single pole switches rather than a DPDT...

------------
Jimbo

non-true-bypass comes in a couple of different varieties.  old crybabies placed a load on your guitar (perpetually, even in bypass) that dragged down both the volume and tone of your guitar all of the time, but there was no buffer so a fuzz sounded fine after the crybaby when it was off.  on the other hand, a boss pedal has some buffering going on as a result of their bypass circuit, and although it might not change your tone terribly much (some, though) you'll probably notice the presence of a boss pedal immediately if you put a fuzz after it.  the inability for you to direcly control the impedance relationship of your guitar with your fuzz will take all the fun out of it (turning down your guitar to get a clean tone)!  also, the headroom on a bypassed boss pedal is limited, so it will clip a really loud signal and add distortion (this will be noticed if you use a loud booster before a boss).  

i can very distinctly hear the difference between a 1 megohm load and no loading at all.  it starts loading down the sparkle of the guitar very quickly.  turning off and on a very high-impedance booster/buffer (using a fet or mosfet) set for unity gain will really expose all of the kinds of things that are degrading your guitar's signal, if you put the buffer after a very short cord from your guitar and before all of your other effects while they are bypassed.  this demonstrates how a very well-designed bufferred bypass could actually seem to improve your tone, but of course, probably wouldn't sound good going into a fuzz.  basically, if you want to get the most out of your setup, try putting your fuzzes first (true-bypass, hopefully) and listen to your rig with and without your pedals wired up at all to see what's getting lost as you add them one by one.

one thing i get a lot of emails about is a sudden change in quality of a fuzz pedal... i ask two questions:  1] check the battery (obvious), and 2] did you just put another pedal or tuner in front of it?

most often, answer #2 is the case.  tuners are the biggest culprits in wrecking fuzz tone... most of them have buffers in them.  use a peterson strobostomp with the true-bypass option selected on the dip switches.

[Somicide]

ok now, my question (not to hijack...):

Will it severely affect how my DS-1 sounds if I switch to TB?  It's stock now, and I rather enjoy the tone it has (if its set at about noon, in my setup) and wondered what would happen if i took out the buffer and put in a 3pdt.  

PnL,

Jeff

[amz-fx]

Has anyone done an A/B test and recorded it? I'd like to hear what destroying effect the non-true bypass has on the sound.

http://www.muzique.com/lab/truebypass.htm

-Jack

[JimRayden]

Yea I've read that and I understand it's a terrible thing to have a non-true bypass.

Well ok... I think I'll spend the extra 6 bucks for another pole... damn, for this money I'd get two of those three-poled switches from aron... anyone know how much the EU charge for accepting a few switches (and maybe a perfboard) from the US? How large are the taxes?

The stompbox-type switches are like 11 euros a piece here.


-------------
Jimbo

[amz-fx]

Yea I've read that and I understand it's a terrible thing to have a non-true bypass.

It doesn't say that exactly...  old vintage pedals with bad bypass will have an effect on the signal - buffered pedals (Boss & Ibanez) are okay and it also proves that there is no downside to using true bypass as has been claimed by some pedal builders.    (I just don't want anyone to get the idea that it says use true-bypass only)

regards, Jack

[stm]

Well, nothinng if either absolutely black or white in real life.  There are pro's and con's for both True Bypass and Buffered Bypass.  Effect manufacturers will let you know what's best in terms of marketing what they offer.  Let's see:


1) True Bypass Pros

a. Theoretically, guitar tone is unaffected when the effect is disengaged.

b. Doesn't matter if your batteries are dying, when you bypass you recover your guitar sound.

c. Doesn't have any dynamic range restriction when bypassed.

d. Doesn't affect usability of effects that rely on your guitar impedance (like FF)


2) True Bypass Cons

a. When multiple effects are chained, overall guitartone will suffer due to the capacitive loading of al the interconnecting cables.


3) Buffered Bypass Pros

a. When properly designed, guitar signal won't be loaded anymore by successive cable impedance or input impedance of successive effects.


4) Buffered Bypass Cons

a. If too many effects are connected, eventually the low and high end will result affected due to the bypass caps and the bandwidth limitations of the buffers, especially if an effect byass is not well designed.

b. Will degrade signal if battery is low.

c. Limited dynamic range in some cases may cause clipping.

d. Will affect negatively any effect that relies on your guitar impedance that's installed afterwards.


5) Summary:

Despite it seems there are more negative aspects to Buffered Bypass than True Bypass, in my opinion at least one True Bypass effect should exist in your chain for optimum sound.

a. Install any input impedance depending effect first in the chain (if possible)

b. Have the next effect be Buffered Bypass, so it will drive all the remaining cables and keep your tone intact.  I do this with an Equalizer with an extra high input impedance (around 5 Mohm).

c. Have all the following effects True Bypass, so they won't affect tone anymore when bypassed.


Regards,

STM

[JimRayden]

So the simplest and best solution is to build a tiny preamp into a guitar and then I can use true bypass boxes in any order, without the fear of accidently leaving the buffer box out of the chain and thus having the optimal performance every time, even on hazy hours of morning. (that's when we do our rehearsals)

Thanks for the advice, stm. I'll try it out. I guess I'll buy the two-pole switch afterall. I'm trying to build this box as perfect and cool as possible. And some extra bucks towards perfection aren't going to hurt.

Still, anyone know the taxes EU could take for aron's switches?

---------------
Jimbo

[stm]

An onboard bypass is a good option, except if you plan on using a FF, since you won't have the Guitar volume interaction.  If you don't use a FF, go ahead with the onboard buffer.  There was a very nice article somewhere about and ACTIVE guitar cable with a JFET preamp on the guitar plug.  The great of this is you don't need to modify your guitar AT ALL, just use the cable and a tiny stompbox to provide power to the preamp and you are done.

[puretube]

...

Still, anyone know the taxes EU could take for aron's switches?



---------------
Jimbo

dunno your country...
in G-many it`s (E-Ust=import-tax) like the VAT=16%

that`s for commercial purposes, or if your private import exceeds
200 Euros (400?).

[EdJ]

In the Netherlands everuthing below about 18 dollar is free.
HTH,Ed

[JimRayden]

Thanks. I calculated that however expensive the taxes are, they can't be high enough to match the 15 bucks per switch that they charge here. (Yes, 15 bucks per switch with 2 poles)

Oh man, the transparent red box is going to be really cool with leds in it.

I'm going to order the switches today I think.


The layout designing question is still up.

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Jimbo