Behringer sued by Roland

[casey]

you know, boss isnt the only manufacturer to have that kind of box...
what about Nobels, or the new digitech pedals ?

http://www.nobels.com/

http://www.musictoyz.com/guitar/pedals/digix.php

[BlackFlag1313]

Boss isn't making claims that the technology was misappropriated.  They are claiming that the aesthetic design was intentionally chosen to capitalize on the good will and consumer value associated with the Boss product.  Behringer could come out and say that it is an exact clone of the circuit in the Boss product or the EH product (assuming of course that no patent protection still applies.)  Trade dress and unfair competion protection is invoked where there is a considerable likelyhood of consumer confusion as to source.  Further, trade dress protection solely covers the asthetic and non-functional elements of the product.  Functionality is solely protected by patent law.

CAVEAT-  This is only intended to be for discussion purposes and does not constitute legal advice, nor is it intended to be used as legal advice, nor substitue for the advice of an attorney.  

[Gladmarr]

3) And lastly to be consistent, if you are a PC user, make sure you buy only IBM PCs. Make sure there are no VIA or AMD chips. Perhaps only Cisco networking. To be extra sure, make sure that supporting electronic components are not made in Taiwan. If you use a mac or iPod make sure you do no use any add on with the same color or has a matching form factor.

IBM sold their PC division to Lenovo of China so, in essence, IBM PCs are a clone of sorts now as well.

:wink:

[moving_electrons]

IBM sold their PC division to Lenovo of China so, in essence, IBM PCs are a clone of sorts now as well.

:wink:

Every good business becomes a big crumby business.

[Torchy]

crp

[BlackFlag1313]

Trade dress and unfair competion protection is invoked where there is a considerable likelyhood of consumer confusion as to source.

So, how the hell could you confuse a £75 cast metal box with "BOSS" in big letters, for a £15 plastic box with BEHRINGER in big letters ? The only ones who profit are the !&£%"^* lawyers, and we all get treated as retards who cant think for ourselves.

I was only explaining the law.  Roland still has to WIN THEIR LAWSUIT.  If everything is as black and white as you state it, I assume Behringer will have an easy time of it.  P.S.  Sorry you don't like lawyers.  I won't be able to sleep tonight now.

[Ge_Whiz]

Ah well, there's always AXL, the biggest guitar manufacturer (in terms of volume output) in the world:

http://www.highlystrung.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_AXL_pedals_19.html

Ooh, look! They've even got one in a bright green case called a 'TOD9 Tube Overdrive'! Gosh, it sounds just like a TS9! Wow, they've been selling it for two years and Roland have never noticed!

Now, that's sarcasm.   :wink:  :wink:  :wink:

[ryanscissorhands]

"The Complaint alleges that in an effort to gain industry acceptance of the cloned pedals, Behringer falsely assured industry retailers that the Behringer line of pedals was approved and endorsed by Roland."

If Behringer actually did this, string them up. If they made (if that's even possible) people think that BOSS had "approved" it, then they should get screwed.

However, I can't see that Behringer actually did this. Unless there is some written proof, it's a bold claim. I'm interested to see how this will go.

At the same time, if Behringer can make similar pedals for cheaper, then good for them. I don't particularly want to spend $200 on a Boss digital Delay, so if I could get one cheaper, then I would.

There are two lessons to be learned here:
1) For Behringer - ripoffs should be a  little but more subtle. Blatent ripoffs are offensive and potentially costly in legal fees/damages.

2) The public now knows that Behringer can make them cheaper for us. Lower the prices, or release a cheaper line. If there wasn't a market for Behringer's cheap ripoffs, then Roland would have nothing to worry about.

[Dragonfly]

keep in mind that this is just my *opinion*....


Behringer, in my mind, has a history of infringing on the trademarks of companies that have worked hard to establish themselves in the MI retail market (anyone remember Mackie?)

Behringer, because they ...ummm... borrow...the look, features, and ideas behind these products, has far less $$$ involved in R&D, and therefore can offer similar products at a greatly reduced price, thus causing damage to the companies who actually *developed* the product in the first place.

Behringer, to my knowledge, has yet to develop a product on their own...pretty much everything that they offer in their line is a copy of someone else's product...they are a "parasitic" company offering "parasitic" products.

You would think that because they (Behringer) has less $$ spent in R&D that they'd be able to offer a quality product for a lower price...in my experience, this is not the case...in 10 year of being involved in the music retail business (besides the 2 i spent on the road...), i've seen more Behringer products fail than any other single companies product. For instance, I can count the number of Mackie consoles that needed service (other than routine maintenance) on one hand (and no, I dont like Mackie products...I prefer Allen & Heath mixers, for the $$$)...however, I've seen upwards of 25-30 Behringer mixers fail over the last 5 years (thats just in my store, guys...I guarantee the number is staggeringly higher worldwide). In fact, typically the Behringer mixers have shown problems with the "mute" and "phantom power" functions. Whether they've made efforts to correct these problems, I don't know...but 2-3 weeks ago I had another 24ch Behringer mixer come in for the "mute" problem (it mutes the whole console...)

So to sum up my rant..sure, Behringer offers similar products at a lower price...they do this by blatantly copying the look, features, and functions of companies that have spent years of time and millions of dollars developing their "often groundbreaking" products. But in my opinion, Behringer can not copy the quality that these products offer. ( ...I dont worry about stepping on a Boss pedal, I'm sure its gonna work every time...I would hate to depend on a Behringer pedal though, given the companies history of "less than reliable" products)

So...in the end, you can choose to support the companies that create these products that we love, or you can choose to support a "parasitic" company like Behringer, that exists only because they copy the products that other companies created.

I'll choose to support companies like Boss and Electro-Harmonix.

(once again, this is my opinion, based on my experience....make up your own mind about Behringer and companies like them )

[StephenGiles]

This will probably provide Behringer with the best publicity they can get - well worth the legal fees I should think. Good luck to them, it's a hard competitive world out there. Like I said before, those cheap pedals would have provided an opportunity for less well off folks to buy them. It could of course be a joint publicity trick!
Stephen

[moving_electrons]

Behringer, because they ...ummm... borrow...the look, features, and ideas behind these products, has far less $$$ involved in R&D, and therefore can offer similar products at a greatly reduced price, thus causing damage to the companies who actually *developed* the product in the first place.)

Classic fast follower startegy.  Example: Dell.

Behringer, to my knowledge, has yet to develop a product on their own...pretty much everything that they offer in their line is a copy of someone else's product...

DEQ2496 is a counter example.

..various comments about Behringer quality ......

Seem to be differing opinions on that for current products.  But it is not related to being a fast follower.  Perceived reliability is a very valid reason to pay a higher price for an item.  Of course price does not linearly relate to quality.  Going for a higher volume, lower margin pricing strategy does not by itself mean that the product quality is lower.

..So...in the end, you can choose to support the companies that create these products that we love, or you can choose to support a "parasitic" company like Behringer, that exists only because they copy the products that other companies created.

Yes that is certainly a choice we must make.  And certainly it is a fine choice to choose Boss or EH.  Keep in mind though, all the times you go with the version that is not from the introducer of some functionality in the various products you buy.

Now where can I buy that Western Electric AT&T phone I am looking for....

[jayp5150]

Ah well, there's always AXL, the biggest guitar manufacturer (in terms of volume output) in the world:

http://www.highlystrung.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_AXL_pedals_19.html

Ooh, look! They've even got one in a bright green case called a 'TOD9 Tube Overdrive'! Gosh, it sounds just like a TS9! Wow, they've been selling it for two years and Roland have never noticed!

Now, that's sarcasm.   :wink:  :wink:  :wink:

Nice call-out.  that's bull, man.  If it's not right for one company, then they need to adress all companies that do this.

Personally, if someone is dense enought to buy a pedal that has borrowed a packaging scheme from another company, and think it's the real thing, then that's their fault.

I've got to go, I'm off to jam on my vintage '54 Phender Telekastor--all original, too; and signed by Leon Phender.  It sounds sweet through my Ibenazz Toobe Skreemer (that's all original, too--with JRC4SS8 chip!).

Man, people are idiots  :wink:

[casey]

i mean come on, their pedals had plastic cases....

a person is not gonna get fooled into thinking that the behringer product would be the same quality at a lower price...

[mikeb]

All you people who think Behringer are great are probably exactly the same ones who will bitch and moan about a lack of 'new ideas' in a few years time when fewer manufacturers are making original pedals. Who'll bother starting a new pedal biz when pricing expectations of consumers have been warped, and when they might possibly have their product ripped off?

Purchase of Behringer producs is implicit approval of their business practices AND implicit approval of their out-sourcing of labour to third-world countries. How much is your moral position on these things worth? US$50 per stompbox?

Mike

[petemoore]

Even though this is very true to you and me IMO Mike...it can easliy mean an entirely different subject to someone asked to specifically respond directly and only to questions raised by such 'theories'.
 I'm pretty certain I was happier before I 'knew stuff'...PeteMoore Circa 2000

[petemoore]

Interesting...
 Stupid ?
 TRICK !!!
 Plastic shaft knobs that stick wayy out. Good one, I had to be stupid not to be interested enough to see *this before buying a BBoard with that 'planned obscelesence' trick to make plastic *junk look like old style pot/knob at the expense of being called stupid by this engineer.
 I have nothing against plastic pot knobs, but tall ones put in the 'guardrail' positions these are, is a recipe for premature failure which could be prevented by consulting me first. Check cashed first. ifOf course..lol...Like they couldn't/didn't figure that one out...same thing with the stupid power supply cord>heavy transformer>shorter section of cord>EZ break plastic jack.
 If you know what you're doing. these fragile points can be protected by:
 Strapping wood on the sides of the board, detents match protruding screws for alignment.
 Mounting that stupid cord...getting rid of the junk jack when it breaks.
 If you were putting this into the top of a rack, you probably wouldn't find the weak points as fast, how many 75 buk BBoard Buyers have a rack to fit a petite soundboard in...Doh.
 I wonder what little 'design secrets' such as these will be found in future B products...I'm glad that I won't have to be the one finding out.
 Might as well call 'm Bichinger...much as some of us like typing about 'em... :twisted:
  I'm just having trouble getting used to it.

[Dragonfly]

Behringer, to my knowledge, has yet to develop a product on their own...pretty much everything that they offer in their line is a copy of someone else's product...

DEQ2496 is a counter example.

Klark Teknik DN9340

[Dirk_Hendrik]

Dragonfly,
+1 for everything you said in this topic so far. It's great to see someone who did do his homework.

[moving_electrons]

Behringer, to my knowledge, has yet to develop a product on their own...pretty much everything that they offer in their line is a copy of someone else's product...

DEQ2496 is a counter example.

Klark Teknik DN9340

I assume you are not saying they copied the DSP software program or other such technology.

I assume you are pointing out that there was an existing (really expensive but hopefully very nice) product on the market that provided 31 band digital equalization and parametric equalization.  So there was a prior proof of concept and a product on the market from which to gauge interest.

The DEQ2496 has added some additional capabilities beyond that and so could be considered as having incremental innovation.

I do see your comparison though.

Is your measure whether a capability is offered for sale?  If it is, would you suggest that the rules be that no other company could provide the same capability once it has been offered by one company?

[Dragonfly]

Dragonfly,
+1 for everything you said in this topic so far. It's great to see someone who did do his homework.

well, i am certainly no one to "tell" someone what they should do...i just feel that people should at least be presented with the proper information to make an informed decision.

I, personally, will not buy Behringer products...but I also won't fault someone who does. Its a decision that we have to make for ourselves, and whichever way you choose, thats fine. The world exists with both kinds of companies... innovators and imitators ....and pretty much always will. Which companies you choose to support in life are up to you. I choose to support the innovators whenever possible, though i'll be the first to tell you that that can't always be the case.

Then again, maybe we should all just shut up and play our guitars !!!