Behringer sued by Roland

[vanhansen]

Oh my!  :shock:  First glance, I thought that was a B*SS display.  Took another look.  Nope, sure isn't, but sure looks like it.  I don't blame Roland at all.  My .02 cents.

[Samuel]

yeah, that's unconscienable

[puretube]

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Yep - those pics look different than what they "press-release" at the moment...
BUT:
in defense of Mr. Behringer, I have to admit that he indeed is inventive,
and very, very aware of design-politics:
he filed 2 design-patents within 1 week
(for what looks to me at first glance the same thingy...):

http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=USD444169S&F=0&QPN=USD444169S
http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=USD444493S&F=0&QPN=USD444493S

now that is cute...
:shock:

[StephenGiles]

.....mountains out of molehills......bloody pathetic.........have a look at this!!!!!



like a bit of Behringer do you??

like your threads a little wider Sir?

I think you would find that Roland have a pretty healthy Balance Sheet!!
Stephen

[puretube]

:?:

[Hal]

look at the "blues driver" same blue package - same 3 knobs, called a "blues overdrive."

clones are clones, similar is similar, but this is over the edge.

[Aharon]

I hadn't seen those,too close for comfort.
Aharon

[StephenGiles]

That little circuit above is a mic preamp from the Behringer MX802 mixer. Nice drawing!
Stephen

[analogguru]

And what is the amazing thing with this Mic-Preamp ?

Something like an industry-Standard in the last 20 years...


For me the "battle" is more interesting...

Behringer hat a big battle with Aphex about patent-infringement which was settled in the beginning of the 90´s......with some money...
The war was in Germany...

By presenting his new stuff at the NAMM-show he entered US-grounds with a complete different law system than europe...

With US-law you can destroy every of your competitives if you have enough money....only file as much court-cases as possible and your competitives can fill in for bankrupcy...you will get court regulation that you are not allowed to sell any unit until the court-case is finished...the court case will cost so much money and time that you will bust...even when you win after a long time later...

Remember the court-case about polaroid cameras....

Cloning Boss ist nothing new...there was a company called "Century" they made 100% clones of Boss...even in a Metal-case....PSK-pedals are very similar...

New is, that Roland got angry and now are ready for a battle....

I dont want choose to one side, but even when Behringer has roots (father) in the pharma-industry, I can only wish him the best....to survive this battle....maybe soon we will see Behringer-products under another company-name....with a "different" (fake-)owner....

Another possibilty (not really expected):
There was also a funny "battle" between Phonic and Alesis...Phonic cloned the (plasticbox)-Midiverb put it in an 19"-case, added an additional Tone-Control etc. and offered it 50$ cheaper than Alesis at the Frankfurt-Music-fair....They even didnt erase the copyright message in the Eprom...and screen-printed "The Programs" (listing) from the manual on the case, without even changing the letters....

I personally saw the (firstly) white face :shock: of Keith Barr changing to red :oops: when he saw it....I went over to him and asked: "Do you like this unit ?"....he answer was: "unbelievable...."......hmmm....later, the Alesis Microverb was made in Taiwan.....

And I believe, that I am the only owner of a Phonic Midiverb-clone....the prototype which I bought at the Phonic-booth at the end of the Frankfurt Music-Fair in 1987 for $150,--....in cash...

analogguru

[puretube]

you know, that it`s not allowed to sell stuff in FF/M... :lol:

[analogguru]

I know....and knew....and its really complicated to get it out of the areal...but this is now history...18 years ago.....so I can say, normally you need papers for every unit to get it through the controls....really a buerocracy....

for this reason, I like this unit very much....

But this was only the half part of the story, here is the rest:

Pre-Story:
When MXR busted, they split up into two groups: Alesis and ART

In 1987 I bought a lot of this Alesis plastic-stuff, the sound was not bad, but the plastic-case....so I put the ORIGINAL-PCB into a 19"-inch case, made some additional electronics (improvements) and screen-printed on the front-panel ALEXIS MIDIVERB PRO in the same letter-style like Alesis...I had it for fun with me on the booth where I participated, not for sales...

On the first day within 2 hours I had to remove it from the booth, cause Keith Barr made some interventions.....to avoid problems I put it somewhere in the privacy part of the booth...two days later I was missing the unit....and got nervous....what happened ?....the really bad guys from ART had their booth about 10m away, and they saw the spectacle with Keith Barr, and when I went two days later to the toilette, they "stole" my unit to make a picture of it...as a birthday-present for Keith Barr...

The Phonic-booth was across the walkway, for this reason I knew this unit from the beginning, and had 5 days time for negotiations....

Keith Barr went there 2 hours before the FFM was closing...so the Phonic-CLONE could last there for the whole FFM....

Do you understand now more about such :shock:  :oops:  :shock:  :oops: faces, my really nice and friendly talk with Keith and the effort to buy this unit and bring it into my home ?

Everytime when I am sad and I look at it, it makes me really smile....    

All the time it remembers me, how funny music-industry-business can be.....

analogguru

[moving_electrons]

I dont want choose to one side, but even when Behringer has roots (father) in the pharma-industry, I can only wish him the best....to survive this battle....maybe soon we will see Behringer-products under another company-name....with a "different" (fake-)owner....
analogguru

I don't think Behringer is in much financial or product intro danger.  Basically they have to change the box, logo and marketing sheets etc. and ship.  That might take 60-90 days.  Scrapping the inventory in the pipeline will cost but after that there is not much cost.  There is little damage Boss can show so not much to collect damages on unless they want to publically state that there was a dip in sales.

[analogguru]

I only want to have the money, what the court-case(s) (including lawyers) will cost, and I can rest for the rest of my life....

I assume, they will sue him for damages $ 50.000.000,-- or more to destroy him....the case is in America....remember Ivana Trump ?

so the costs: starting level $ 500.000,--

analogguru

[moving_electrons]

I only want to have the money, what the court-case(s) (including lawyers) will cost, and I can rest for the rest of my life....

I assume, they will sue him for damages $ 50.000.000,-- or more to destroy him....the case is in America....remember Ivana Trump ?

so the costs: starting level $ 500.000,--

analogguru

Well, you can always sue but you have to be able to win.  You have to substantiate damages.  These products have not even shipped.  Now if they ship them with cosmetics that are not particularly confusing and put a disclaimer on the box etc.  there liability is low.  

Of course I am sure both companies can of course spend lots of money on attorneys,  travel etc.  Still at some point, once there is not really anything left for Behringer  to have to change, there is really not any financial reason for Boss to continue the suit.  Usually both parties will go for some settlement that allows each to claim some victory and they go on to the real battle for share of customer "spend".

[Paul Marossy]

Dang! That display sure looks like Boss pedals.  :shock:

[moving_electrons]

...and they go on to the real battle for share of customer "spend".

Oh that sounded so cold :shock:

I should have said ..."then go on to the real job of satisfying the needs of their customers."

[analogguru]

I believe Roland has enough assets to be able to loose $ 1.000.000,-- without even feeling it.

Behringer first has to invest $ 500.000,-- and for my opinion this will hurt and cost substance.

Roland is much, much bigger than Behringer and for my opinion has also more margin on their products = profit = reserves

Roland is angry about Behringer - if not, they would ignore him...like all the other cloning companies.

And in economy only one thing counts: money
Money you will get with turnaround, and this is measured by market-presence (percentage).

Funny, that Danelectro has recognized this battle and reacted, and participates in the game with a special product line for $ 19,--/unit.

a normal market reaction to keep the market-shares even without profit.

I remember such a battle with ONLY cola-bottles in a leisure-park...
A big company made a minus on every sold cola-bottle for about $ 0,1 for one year, only to destroy a competitive ....than the competitive busted...and the big company sold their cola-bottles in the next year for the normal price (4 times higher)

this game has a name: dumping...and who invented this game ? Japanese people?

we will see the future...only the strong survive,
analogguru

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Just thinking about the real miracle of DIY.
you start off just wanting to make a pedal. ...
Next thing you know, you have learnt how to solder, do metalwork, use computer graphics, etch, use test gear, electronic design, PCB layout, painting...
to say nothing of an education in the darker side of human nature & capitalism :shock:
Where else can you get an education like this?

[moving_electrons]

Behringer first has to invest $ 500.000,-- and for my opinion this will hurt and cost substance.

I don't think so. I cannot find numbers on Behringer's turnover in 2004 but in 2003 it was $130 Million US dollars with a growth rate of 40%.  I am sure they would rather not spend $500k but it won't cause particular hardship.

I remember such a battle with ONLY cola-bottles in a leisure-park...
A big company made a minus on every sold cola-bottle for about $ 0,1 for one year, only to destroy a competitive ....than the competitive busted...and the big company sold their cola-bottles in the next year for the normal price (4 times higher)

this game has a name: dumping...and who invented this game ? Japanese people?

I would imagine the strategy goes back to the begining of man.

Technically though dumping is when you sell below cost to damage a competitor.  It is usually illegal.  But your point is well taken.  What you describe is common in deregulated industries such as airlines.  When a new competitor comes into a hub airport, the existing dominant player drops prices at that airport until the competitor is squeezed out and then raises prices back up.  If they have reduced the competition sufficiently they raise above the original price.  Legal too.

One of the dangers of going up against the big guys.

[Dragonfly]

Just thinking about the real miracle of DIY.
you start off just wanting to make a pedal. ...
Next thing you know, you have learnt how to solder, do metalwork, use computer graphics, etch, use test gear, electronic design, PCB layout, painting...
to say nothing of an education in the darker side of human nature & capitalism :shock:
Where else can you get an education like this?

agreed


<nice "derail" Paul>