legal help wanted! Got a cease and desist call from Dunlop!

[maximee]

No offense, Speeddemon...
Somehow I get the feeling you don't really want to accept polite suggestions to change the look of that pedal and be fine...
Don't get me wrong, you don't have to...

But then I ask myself why you asked in the first place...  :roll:

[object88]

and what if other folks want a TB Micro Amp with the same look?
Apparently there's a market for it and someone (Mr. Dunlop) doesn't like the idea of such a market.  :wink:

There's no two ways around this, really.  If it looks exactly like an MXR product, and you're selling it, then you're treading on Dunlop's trade dress.  The fact that there's a market for it doesn't lessen Dunlop's rights.

You'd probably do better if you weren't selling or distributing the cloned stompboxes.  I don't think that Dunlop could come after you if you're pursuing this strictly for your own interest.

[mlabbee]

and what if other folks want a TB Micro Amp with the same look?
Apparently there's a market for it and someone (Mr. Dunlop) doesn't like the idea of such a market.

But all those people want the money in the bank - why should I be stopped from getting it for them?  

Maybe we've all been to polite in our advice (although I think I've been pretty clear so far), so let me see if I can make it simple for you:

1) Dunlop/MXR has clearly established rights to the trade dress of their products.  

2) You are violating those rights by ripping off their product.  You've even been stupid enough to repeatedly admit in a public forum that this is exactly your intention when you build these boxes.

3) They are right.

4) You are wrong.  

5) If they decide to sue you because you refuse to back off, you will lose.  

6) Given the advice you've received so far and your apparent unwillingness to accept it, you'll deserve whatever you get.

[brad]

I just noticed that this thread has also been posted on the Harmony Central forum, and would it be any coincidence that Speeddemon's signature includes the lines:

"For sale:
Hot Wire Audio Myclone Amp (MXR Micro-amp clone with a hint more low-end) â,¬59
-forbidden by Dunlop! So it's real hot! Email me for secret pics. Go ahead cry-babies; forward this to Dunlop too!
Customized AB, ABC & TB Loop boxes."

*sigh*

[zachary vex]

yeah, well at this point, it's obvious that the reason for the similarity is to attract attention to make money.  there's a lot of this going in in Europe right now.  cloning currently-made products for profit is theft, plain and simple.  and completely unjustifiable.  end of story.  there is no excuse.  flame away, apologists.  all this time and energy being devoted to copying someone else's hard work... whatever happened to doing something original, people?  is it just... too... (pant pant pant)... difficult? *collapses for dramatic effect*

[octafish]

I wonder if Aron should disable the edit function again? It seems we are heading to another mass deletion when Dunlop unleashes the lawyers. I mean who wants to get caught with their pants down saying "I was trying to trade on your good name, and make money out of your reputation.".

Maybe Speeddemon should buy a factory in China and start distributing these pedals to the streets of Bangkok and Saigon. "Hey mister you want to buy a watch? Genuine Rolex. No? How about a booster pedal? Genuine MXR." This pedal is a knock off.
The big question is why make a knock off in the first place? I mean I have built clones and tweaked them, which I'm sure even Mr Vex wouldn't mind if I do it only for myself. But why when building something for yourself would you copy an existing companies Logo/layout and paintscheme?

[R.G.]

Mass edit would not help. The thread is already archived independently at one place that I know of.

[octafish]

Mass edit would not help. The thread is already archived independently at one place that I know of.

Ha! I wonder if Dunlop execs ever ghost Harmony Central or this forum?

[javacody]

This thread is a joke. mlabee, RG, save your breath for people who aren't wasting oxygen.

I'll bet Dunlop didn't even call him.

[H.Manback]

yeah, well at this point, it's obvious that the reason for the similarity is to attract attention to make money.  there's a lot of this going in in Europe right now.  cloning currently-made products for profit is theft, plain and simple.  and completely unjustifiable.  end of story.  there is no excuse.  flame away, apologists.  all this time and energy being devoted to copying someone else's hard work... whatever happened to doing something original, people?  is it just... too... (pant pant pant)... difficult? *collapses for dramatic effect*

With all due respect, what area of cloning are you referring to (in general, just FX)? And what do you mean by Europe anyway :?. Don't let the European Union fool you, we aren't that much of a union, so talking about for instance Eastern Europe is different from Western Europe. I'm from the Netherlands, and I have absolutely no idea what you are going on about when you call Europe one big Xerox machine....


Edit: I want to make it clear though, that I think that while it might look a bit childish (it's not like he is selling them to a lot of people), I can understand why Dunlop is undertaking action. I think the best thing to do is just cut your losses and admit you're wrong in this one, and just redesign the look. Dunlop can't avoid undertaking action, because as stated they have to actively protect their copyrights. If they wouldn't the door is open for others who might not limit their production.

[brad]

I think it's just people generally ripping off the free information being shared by the diy community and using it as a way to make a quick buck and recieve admiration from none the wiser customers.

[Hal]

put it in a RACO

[O]

How does the saying go? Any publicity is good publicity?

Call me a skeptic, but I find it hard to believe that he posted all over the place with the same story and he seems to be unfazed by the "fact" that MXR/Dunlop are supposedly "after him". He seems to be welcoming the threat.

I know that if I had received a letter like that, I would be bending over backwards to apease the beast. Seems that the more we talk about it, and the more you guys tried to give him advice, the more "defiant" he became.

Something doesn't quite add up... who knows :?

[dr]

...my Uncle Bill had a saying:"...once I had a dog that preferred the taste of cat shit rather than steak- couldn't talk sense to him, either...... :lol:

[NaBo]

um...  hmm...  mmyes...  right... well, um...



Now there's something we can all agree about!

But in all seriousness, Dunlop/MXR is cool, so cut it out.

[ryanscissorhands]

Let's take a utilitarian approach weighing gains and losses.

What you have to gain: selling, as you say, maybe 4 pedals.

What you have to lose: The cost of minimal legal fees, plus awarded "damages," time, money, pride.

Dude, even rats bail out of a burning ship. I think. Maybe I got that saying wrong. Well, anyway, forget the rats, man. You have nothing to gain, and a lot to lose. DO NOT GRAB GOLIATH BY THE BALLS! I say this out of respect because, well, it does look good. Just make it look YOUR style of good, not theirs.

[ryanscissorhands]

there's a lot of this going in in Europe right now.

Woah, man. True or not true, Europe has NOTHING on Taiwan, the rip-off capital of the world, no joke. I went in a store there that had the 7-11 stripes a number times before I realized that it wasn't a 7-11. It just had the painted window stripes, and no sign.

Or the KLG chicken place (many Taiwanese people wouldn not be able to tell the difference between KFC and KLG). Video stores rent out burned DVD's. Not to mention the vast amount of scooter name ripoffs. . .

It's so common over there that it's ridiculous. Quite entertaining.

[Fret Wire]

He's in the wrong: that's black and white, plain and simple.

A few funny observations:

There's been more than a few who come on this forum, ask newbie questions here, then go on HC and pose as guru's. I'm sure Zach sees it all the time. I know Mikeb has. There's some really good players on HC with GAS, and you see some posers trying to take advantage of them with their bs pedals.

There's plenty of boutiqer's who clone the TS-808, change the look and the name, and give the impression that it's their own design. We really beat on these guys. Legally, they are in the clear.

Speeddemon, at least isn't pretending to have a new ckt or be a guru, he's just stealing someone's trade dress (illegal). Q for Mlabbee: can this incur liability for the forum that hosts the pics?

Search the archives, we insult Dunlop all the time. We post our own schematics of their pedals (legal). But we don't if an individual or company asks us not to. We also post pics of their's and others pcb's artwork (illegal).

We love to paste Boss's artwork all over the net. Then we feel bad when Berhinger clones them. I guess we forgot Boss and other cheaper imports helped kill the original MXR.

We don't mind when Pisotones makes the most skilled/accurate trade dress clones (not for sale). In fact, they are awesome.

Those are just some observations, food for thought, that's all.

Speddemon is still in the wrong, regardless of anyones feelings toward Dunlop. Also, the point of coming over here just to tell us, or use this forum for an other agenda (more sales) is not cool either.

Maybe no one snitched him out to Dunlop. Maybe he did it himself, maybe Dunlop never called him. A little guy standing up to a big pedal maker would sell a lot of pedals to people more infatuated with the idea of that, than the sound. Maybe Dunlop searches forums for infringement.

This is Andy Rooney........ :shock:  :roll:

[Mike Burgundy]

It's no different than the Behringer thing. As said, it matters that they're copied and you're advertising with it (it's on websites), not if you're making money from it or eating up their business.
There's loads and loads of precedents here, of which I as a designer know quite a few. Type and colour aren't protectable usually ("Hey! You're milk-carton is ALSO blue! I'll sue!"), but a key appearance usually is - IF it's in the same field of business. It is then and only then (with exceptions - read on) that you're actually harming a brand.
There's funny stories in this. In what memory seems to tell me was Iceland, a brand of condoms was banned because their package was burgundy red, with gold trimmings and gold letters. It looked remarbably like a packet of Dunhill cigarettes.
Dunhill sued, and got their way *but only in this country*. Why? Condoms and cigarettes aren't in the same niche, so one would think there's no legal problem.
The thing was, in this country condoms were exclusively sold in the cigarette shop.
The judge concluded this could lead to confusion, harming the Dunhill brand and ruled against the condoms.

[brad]

There's been more than a few who come on this forum, ask newbie questions here, then go on HC and pose as guru's. I'm sure Zach sees it all the time. I know Mikeb has. There's some really good players on HC with GAS, and you see some posers trying to take advantage of them with their bs pedals.

There's plenty of boutiqer's who clone the TS-808, change the look and the name, and give the impression that it's their own design. We really beat on these guys.

I agree Fret Wire.

It would be really great if this forum could be a place for open discussion between people who build non-profit diy pedals for their own personal enjoyment!  There'd be so many more great schematics and ideas being circulated if it weren't for the vultures who are lurking around waiting for the next profitable idea to be posted.

Just look at the Fulltone 70 thread.  The actual schematic can't even be posted because there's such a high probability for someone to use it for commercial gain.  This is a DIY stompbox forum, and DIYers can't even openly discuss new schematics without gate-crashers ruining the party!  It seems to have gotten worse over the past year too.