question for zachary Vex or Paul Perry of Frostwave

[alchemist]

I recently teamed up with a friend of mine who is an Electronic designer. We are in the process of formulating a small business that will produce original effect pedal designs (not copies of antiquated designs and certainly not ripoff's of web designs). As a small business (yours) that looks like it has become quite successfull, I have some questions I would like to ask you, Unless these are guarded trade secrets:

1. Did you start off locally, and then build up to National status?, How did you go about getting your pedals Distributed?

2. Did you do very small runs of pedals or did you gamble and create say 100 when you started, confident that the design was good?

3. What will get a music shop (retailer) to respect you and form a business relationship with you? Are there certain codes of Electronic manufacturing you must abide by, to become excepted by a music retailer? I am guessing you have to have an endorsement by a major label artist(s) that use your pedals :true?

4. How critical is selling on the internet? (probabley a dumb question...) Let me put it this way, How critical is getting reviewed in trade Magazines, have you found advertisement (web media or published magazine reviews and adds in magazines) did these boost sales signifigantly?

5. In your opinion Does a business work better if there is one sole Despot who calls all the shots, or an argumentitive democracy that finally reaches conclusion?

6. What's a rough estimate of start-up costs ( we are not rich) but we can pool resources (ie. Tools)


We have no interest, in apeing Z.Vex or FrostWave, but the success of both of your companies is Noted!


Thanks- Alchemist

[zachary vex]

1. Did you start off locally, and then build up to National status?, How did you go about getting your pedals Distributed?

i started off by hand-carrying my samples into stores... locally, then to friends of that store who had other stores, then i drove across country and took them into other stores.  for every 10 stores i visited, i found one that would carry the pedals.

2. Did you do very small runs of pedals or did you gamble and create say 100 when you started, confident that the design was good?

i made one at a time.  when i went across country i probably had 5 of each type with me.

3. What will get a music shop (retailer) to respect you and form a business relationship with you? Are there certain codes of Electronic manufacturing you must abide by, to become excepted by a music retailer? I am guessing you have to have an endorsement by a major label artist(s) that use your pedals :true?

you have to convince them that the pedals are interesting enough to sell, basically.  most stuff is seriously boring.  i don't use endorsements even today.  i may someday, but basically, the stores sell to rock stars and then the salesmen have fantastic stories to share with other potential customers.

4. How critical is selling on the internet? (probabley a dumb question...) Let me put it this way, How critical is getting reviewed in trade Magazines, have you found advertisement (web media or published magazine reviews and adds in magazines) did these boost sales signifigantly?

you have to be really really interesting... that's the key.  then the magazines come to you.  i don't sell direct.  i limit my internet-only dealers... i think i have 3.

5. In your opinion Does a business work better if there is one sole Despot who calls all the shots, or an argumentitive democracy that finally reaches conclusion?

despot.

6. What's a rough estimate of start-up costs ( we are not rich) but we can pool resources (ie. Tools)

if you do it the way i did, the cost is what parts you buy... i just built 3 at a time or so.


We have no interest, in apeing Z.Vex or FrostWave, but the success of both of your companies is Noted!

good luck!

z

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

1. Did you start off locally, and then build up to National status?, How did you go about getting your pedals Distributed?

...I have a web retailer who runs the www.frostwave.com site & sells on commission. And I have about two shops that sell my stuff (it is Big City Music in USA).

2. Did you do very small runs of pedals or did you gamble and create say 100 when you started, confident that the design was good?
...For each of my designs, either it was something I was asked  for, or something I just wanted to see. Once I have a prototype that people (whose judgment I respect) like, then I make say 100 (pretty well the minimum number to spread prototyping and metalwork and PCB costs over).

3. What will get a music shop (retailer) to respect you and form a business relationship with you? Are there certain codes of Electronic manufacturing you must abide by, to become excepted by a music retailer? I am guessing you have to have an endorsement by a major label artist(s) that use your pedals :true?
...I have always avoided endorsements. Because, I don't want to have any of my pedals 'pidgeon holed'.
BUT, if you want t5o make money, you MUST have famous peopel use your gear, because 98% of players are copiers. I'm building for the other 2%, though!
The big problem with stores, is to find ones that like to pay their bills.

4. How critical is selling on the internet? (probabley a dumb question...) Let me put it this way, How critical is getting reviewed in trade Magazines, have you found advertisement (web media or published magazine reviews and adds in magazines) did these boost sales signifigantly?
...paid advertisements do nothing. Reviews help.

5. In your opinion Does a business work better if there is one sole Despot who calls all the shots, or an argumentitive democracy that finally reaches conclusion?
...For ANY business, you need to be sure who is responsible for what.
Nobody at Frostwave is full time. When I had an outside designer (for the Alienator & the Fat Controller sequencer) I didn't interfere at all. If I had, they would have been different products, but not necesarily better.

6. What's a rough estimate of start-up costs ( we are not rich) but we can pool resources (ie. Tools)
...my first stompbox was a ring modulator & it was built on VERO!! :oops:
there are 100+ still out there a decade later, with no problems, so it CAN be done. A key for ALL small (or big) business is to realise that once you spend a $, it is GONE. THe electronic side is the easiest! getting good boxes, scereenprinting, PCBs, components at good prices is the whole key.
All the tools I need: the usual plus oscilloscope.
The PCBs, boxes, screening are all done by outside companies..

7.We have no interest, in apeing Z.Vex or FrostWave, but the success of both of your companies is Noted!
...Frostwave isn't really a success financially. But, life is more than money, thank God!
It's VASTLY easier to make money doing boxes in USA.

Good luck, Alchemist! Heat up the retort! :wink:

[davebungo]

Alchemist,
why don't you give us a taster of what's to come?  This is all really interesting.

[alchemist]

Paul and zack,


thanks for answering my questions, That was really useful

Oh and Dave...

First product will be a booster, has not entered prototype stage yet, Jeezzz... were still getting all the paperwork together! and besides.. I think if you talk about something before it happens, you can jinx it, The designer Dylan White Has built a protype of a super vibrato and various other things...don't worry I'll keep you informed, but I won't kick down Schematics

Cheers-Alchemist

[Hal]

like everything, the more money you spend, the more you can potentially make.  Take swiches, for example.  If you buy 20 at a time from Aron, you're looking at $6 each.  If you buy 500, you're probably looking at $4 each, or even less.  Depends when you have the capital, and if you don't mind taking a risk.  All electronic components are the same, when it comes to buying in bulk - prices drop significantly with large quantities.  

Tools are a must, if you're going to be doing large quantities.  You'll make youself crazy if you don't have stuff like a drill press, a soldering station, a nice selection of pliers, etc.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

One of the biggest decisions is this: selling direct versus selling thru stores.
If you sell direct, you can charge less (or make more profit).
But, for stompboxes, people naturally want to try before buying. So your potential buyer base is much smaller, plus you have to make connection with them somehow.

Another vote agains selling direct, is that you end up spending an enormous amount of time dealing with customers. OK, that is what (if anything) justifies boutique prices, the fact that you can speak to the designer, but.. eventually if you ramp the business up to where you can make a proper wage, this stuff fills the entire day. And more... dealing with customers is what stores are for, after all.

It aint eay.. But, at least, if you end up with too many parts, you can sell tehm on this board!

[icurays1]

These are some of the exact questions I was preparing to ask!  Thank you Zach and Paul for the great advice; I'm looking to get started in this business, too (amps as well as effects, hopefully!) I'm far from being capable of being in full production, but hopefully sometime down the road I'll have some cool stuff to show everyone.
 Thanks for bringing up this topic, Alchemist, and best of luck to you! Looking forward to seeing some prototypes.
 ~Nick

[sir_modulus]

I'm in the exact same position as the above poster, and would like to ditto what he said exactly. Thanks to all!

Cheers,

Nish

[mikeb]

First product will be a booster

Soon there will be an 'original' booster design for every person on this planet.

I still can't get over, especially considering how limited the frequency range is for guitar, just how many people make these bloody things ....

Mike

[zachary vex]

These are some of the exact questions I was preparing to ask!  Thank you Zach and Paul for the great advice; I'm looking to get started in this business, too (amps as well as effects, hopefully!) I'm far from being capable of being in full production, but hopefully sometime down the road I'll have some cool stuff to show everyone.
 Thanks for bringing up this topic, Alchemist, and best of luck to you! Looking forward to seeing some prototypes.
 ~Nick

you have to keep in mind that my business was started 10 years ago, long before the boom in boutique builders.  mike fuller was ahead of me by 4 years, and jack brossart was doing the prescription thang, and jeorge tripps was making way huge.  other one-man manufacturers who were actually in numerous stores were few and far between.  the internet was not the one-stop shopping center it is now.  the forums (like this one) were much smaller and had a handful of participants.  it was a little like the late 60's, i suppose... pretty quiet on the effects front.  something happened because of the internet that made all that change... so the rules are different now... but the rules of retail have not changed.  if the salespeople don't understand what it is that makes your products special, or if your devices are strange (like mine) and nobody can effectively demonstrate them, they'll stay on the shelves.  i remember calling my 10 or so stores every 2-4 weeks and asking if they needed anything, and i was thrilled if i sold 4 pedals.  that was rent!  i was living in basements, and later a storefront used for storage of coffee shop equipment, where my landlord yelled out to me one night as i took out my trash "hey zack!  i almost shot you!  you shouldn't be sneaking around the building at night!" (he's in prison now.)  try not to get shot.  

anyway, good luck.  8^)

[ESPguitar]

Yes, he definetly need a good luck, Zack..

:wink:

It's hard! But it's not impossible!! Remember that!!!!

(i'm in buisiness)

RB

[davebungo]

First product will be a booster

Soon there will be an 'original' booster design for every person on this planet.

I still can't get over, especially considering how limited the frequency range is for guitar, just how many people make these bloody things ....

Mike

The thing is, it's the first thing anyone of this persuasion want to build because a) they are easy to copy/design and build, b) they are cheap and most importantly, they are probably every guitarists most useful pedal on the floor in front of them so, long live the booster.  Why pay silly money for a simple booster when you can make one?

...and good luck to anyone who tries to make a bob or two in this game but I'm a believer in the old saying "you make your own luck" - it has to be about dedication and perseverance more than anything else.

[Mark Hammer]

First, kudos to both Zach and Paul for their generosity of spirit and willingness to take the time and provide good guidance.

Second, if one hopes to sell "boutique" pedals through other retailers, whether internet or regular stores, I think it is important to realize how much the product needs to distinguish itself in the midst of a plethora of other pedals.  Go to a place like Musictoyz and the sheer volume of distortion pedals and boosters is staggering.  Personally, I think the only way to make ANY choice under those circumstances is by name or cost because many of the pedals sound ridiculously similar.

Add to this the reality that when entering a boutique store, one is also likely to encounter vintage pedals or other second hand that may well sell for the same price as what you want to sell for.  Why buy an unknown when a known one is available?

As Zach appropriately notes, he was in the lucky position of entering early in the game, though he also situated himself well by offering products that nobody else did.  Ideally, I would think, to grab a foothold in the market and make it more than just a hobby, the salesperson's response to the question "Do you have anything in the way of such and such a pedal?" needs to be "Well, we have this ONE pedal...".

Another thing to consider is that extra features can sometimes make the difference between what are otherwise similar-sounding pedals.  For instance, the newer Mayer pedals have parallel buffered outputs, one of which is unaffected sound and always available.  Other things that might distinguish pedals might be things like rechargeable batteries, momentary switching, pots that lend themselves to foot twiddling, internal trimpots for customization, etc.  Basically anything that lets the buyer think "I can do some things with THIS pedal that I can't do with the other comparables, with greater ease, convenience, or surprisingly outcomes."

[Processaurus]

Yeah, and the first thing most musicians do when they try out a new pedal is to turn all the knobs all the way up and see if it makes an insane sound.  Then they'll turn 'em to a more reasonable setting and see if they get a usable sound... at least to sell me it has to be capable of being misused.

[zachary vex]

Yeah, and the first thing most musicians do when they try out a new pedal is to turn all the knobs all the way up and see if it makes an insane sound.  Then they'll turn 'em to a more reasonable setting and see if they get a usable sound... at least to sell me it has to be capable of being misused.

hmm.  well then.  i sell 200 fuzz factories per month, and if you turn all the knobs to the right you get no sound.  same as turning all knobs to the left.

so that theory's out the window.  8^)

[Doug_H]

Second, if one hopes to sell "boutique" pedals through other retailers, whether internet or regular stores, I think it is important to realize how much the product needs to distinguish itself in the midst of a plethora of other pedals.  Go to a place like Musictoyz and the sheer volume of distortion pedals and boosters is staggering.  Personally, I think the only way to make ANY choice under those circumstances is by name or cost because many of the pedals sound ridiculously similar.

You would think...  But in some ways the pedal market is getting similar to the audiophile market. There seems to be an endless demand for endless varieties of this stuff. Every time I think the market is completely saturated, someone else comes out with a slight variation of a theme which becomes the new flavor of the month. Soon it seems like "everyone has to have one".

I think some of the buyers are becoming like "pedal connoiseurs" (affectionally referred to as "cork sniffers" in some circles   ). They hear all kinds of things.  In all honesty, I think psychological aspects of packaging, artwork, "coolness factor", etc influence how a particular product sounds to some people.

It's all kind of baffling to me. For one, I don't know where all this disposable income is coming from. I thought working musicians were supposed to be poor???    


Doug

[nelson]

dont have to be a "working musician" to play an instrument, nor a "working sound engineer" to want audiophile equipment. I agree with you the pedal market is becoming like the audiophile market. pedals that are about 30 pounds of amterials selling for hundreds of pounds. Is pretty ridiculous.......perhaps why I decided to build my own

[Doug_H]

pedals that are about 30 pounds of amterials selling for hundreds of pounds. Is pretty ridiculous.......perhaps why I decided to build my own

I don't agree that pedal prices are ridiculous. There are a lot of good reasons they are priced where they are at. But that's all I'm going to say about it.  (I don't want that subject to rear its ugly head again...)

This has been discussed ad nauseum here before. Search the archives for "cornish", for example, and you will find a lot of good discussion on that topic.

Doug

[nelson]

just to clarify, I am talking about mass produced pedals, not boutique hand made effects. there is good reason they(boutique) are so expensive.