Water Analogy for Electronic components?

[walters]

1.) What would be the Water Analogy for a Transformer?


2.) What would be the Water Analogy for a Voltage Drop?


3.) What would be the Water Analogy for a Phase Shift?
      Because it lags and leads the Current and Voltage
     
   of if Current is the flow of water
   and the Voltage is the Pressure
   this Pressure and flow of Water need to get lags or leads
   what Water Analogy would this be?

[R.G.]

1.) What would be the Water Analogy for a Transformer?

There is not an exact one, as water does not have an alternate field like electricity does. It has only pressure and flow rate. The closest is a hydraulic cylinder, which is very like an autotransformer, but that's not a good analogy. Don't get hung up on this on.

2.) What would be the Water Analogy for a Voltage Drop?

Pressure loss.

3.) What would be the Water Analogy for a Phase Shift?
Because it lags and leads the Current and Voltage
of if Current is the flow of water
and the Voltage is the Pressure
this Pressure and flow of Water need to get lags or leads
what Water Analogy would this be?

Phase shift is a characteristic of waves, not electricity. Waves in water obey exactly the same rules for phase as waves in electricity. So there is not a neat water explanation.

[toneman]

go with the flow, luke.

the right-hand rule also works for hitchhiking.

T

[walters]

1.) Waves like how for Phase Shifts?


2.) Can u explain more about the water Waves ?

[R.G.]

Walters, can you tell us how much electronics background you have before signing on here today?

Your questions indicate either a need for some basic electronics understanding or an unfamiliarity with English, or both. I do not mean those as insults, just observations.

I'm thinking we can do more for you by recommending electronics basics that typing in an electronics education out of order as you think up the questions.

Again, I am not intending to be insulting, just trying to help in a way that I think will be faster for you.

[Rob Strand]

OK you can draw analogies but cases (1) and (3) are cases that can screw up people's minds, kind of defeating the purpose of the analogy.  To get the analogy right there's a few finer points.

To clarify, there are DC circuits and AC circuits (and combinations).  The way the currents in each circuit behaves are different.  For AC, the current and voltage *varies with time* and it does so about a zero mean position. For example the the first half-cycle of a sinewave is positive and the second halfe cycle is negative but overall the sum of the two halves is zero.

The water analogy is generally targeted at DC circuits.  The current represents the flow of the water (the water itself is like the free electrical charge) and the voltage the pressure in the "pipe".  The current flows in one direction and flows in a loop.  However, you can have a water analogy  for AC but the water analogy wasn't isnt really intended on being stretched that far - when you get to AC you are supposed to have an electric view.  Just as with electricity the DC and AC cases are different.

For AC the flow direction is changing each half cycle.  Imagine a pump with the pump outlet driving the inlet of a tube system.  A DC analogy is the pump pumps in one direction.  An AC analogy is where the pump pumps the water back and forth in such a way that there is no *overall flow* in one direction on average (overall flow in one direction would be a DC component).

To (sort of) answer 3, imagine breaking the loop of tube and putting in a piece elastic rubber tube (same material as say a rubber balloon).  If the pressure changes, say increasing, the rubber tube will balloon out.  More liquid is stored in the volume of the tube over the period where the pressure is changing, and during this period less liquid is flowing out of the other end.   If the pressure drops later the balloon deflates and the stored liquid is return.  This is like storing electrical charge in a capacitor.  The storage mechanism is what gives rise to phase shifts.

For the transformer, you would need a moveable piston, like a slug, in the first tube system.  Imagine two system such system except the replace the pump on the second system with tube.  Now connect the piston of the first system to that of the second system.  When there is flow in the first system the slug moves, which then moves the fluid in the second system.  the transformer ratio is determined by the ratio of the areas of the two systems.  Note also that if you put a DC flow into the first system the piston keeps moving until is bashes against some physical limit - that's sort of like saturating the transformer.  If you stick to AC the piston move back and forth.  

As you can see the fluid analogy starts to get a little out of hand.  On the other hand it might make you start thinking where does the charge come from on the secondary of an isolated transformer .

If you are thinking the waves in water analogy gets even more off the track.  For the AC I've explain the whole fluid is in motion.

[walters]

1.) Thanks Rob that was good

2.) yes i always wonder how did the water get to the secondary side
    of the transformer

[ESPguitar]

Walters, can you tell us how much electronics background you have before signing on here today?

Your questions indicate either a need for some basic electronics understanding or an unfamiliarity with English, or both. I do not mean those as insults, just observations.

I'm thinking we can do more for you by recommending electronics basics that typing in an electronics education out of order as you think up the questions.

Again, I am not intending to be insulting, just trying to help in a way that I think will be faster for you.

This is the third theme you posted this on R.G  :wink:

RB

[petemoore]

I don't know...it evaporates from one coil and condenses on the other...how's that?

[Satch12879]

Civil Engineer jumping in here... in walters' defense, this is actually a good question and was a point I brought up as an undergraduate.  A lot of times neither students nor instructors make the connection between fluid flow in pipes (much different than open-channel flow) and electrical circuits.  There are differences, but many of the concepts are the same.  For example, the equations for equivalent fluid flow and losses in series and parallel pipes are THE SAME as equivalent voltages and resistances in series and parallel circuits.  Neat, eh?

1.) What would be the Water Analogy for a Transformer?

Correct, none because you can't "induce" water out of the air; it's either there or it isn't.  Although a water tower is the analogue to a battery or DC power source and a pump is the analogue to a current source.

2.) What would be the Water Analogy for a Voltage Drop?

Pressure is tenuous; although I could conceptualize it, my Fluid Mechanics professor had an objection to using pressure, particularly psi, as a measure for fluid energy especially in pipe systems, whereas he could more easily visualize an equivalent column of water which is known as "head."  But yes, a pressure drop or head loss is the analogue of a voltage drop.  Be mindful that fluids are based on potential and kinetic energy derived from gravity while electricity is derived from electromagnetic forces (but then again, the potential in the battery you are using was probably converted from some sort of potential/kinetic system up the line...).  However, both pressure/head and voltage/potential are dissipated in essentially the same way: pipe skin friction and junction losses in fluids and heat dissipation in electical circuits.

3.) What would be the Water Analogy for a Phase Shift? Because it lags and leads the Current and Voltage or if Current is the flow of water and the Voltage is the Pressure this Pressure and flow of Water need to get lags or leads what Water Analogy would this be?

Correct, there is no phase shift in fluid flow in pipes, in fact wave flow in pipes is a bad idea.  There is also no lag or lead in fluid mechanics.  

Remember flow, Q, is defined by volume (moved) per unit time, and fluid potential is either force per unit area (P, pressure) or unit height (H, head).  Again, the analogues are current and voltage/electical potential.  One variable, interestingly enough, that exists in fluid flow but not in electricity is velocity, V, distance per unit time.  Fun fact, what you feel coming out of your shower faucet is NOT pressure, but velocity.  Anyone care to tell me why?

[Johnny Guitar]

2.) yes i always wonder how did the water get to the secondary side
    of the transformer

 :lol:  

:roll:  osmosis?  :shock:

:wink:

(sorry, this post made my Sunday morning!)

[walters]

Thanks alot Satch for the info

[jmusser]

This may or may not have anything to do with this topic, but,I just picked up the"Electronics Projects for Musicians" book by Craig Anderton. He uses water analogy in his examples. I haven't got to delve into this book too much yet, because I just got it, but it looks like what I've been needing for awhile. I basically need to get the concept down of how electrical concepts apply to audio. It's hard for me to think of audio as AC, but it is, so therefore it can be manipulated in some of the same was as good old 60 cycle house current. This is what I always think of AC as being, 60 cycle house current. It's hard to think of audio signals being rectified, filtered (low pas/highpass) and all that. It's just something that I was never taught. We never spent time on wrecking a signal :shock:

[Rob Strand]

[ quote ] Correct, none because you can't "
Induce" Water out of the air; [ /quote ] That's
not a valid argument because you could use the same argument that an
electrical transformer cannot possibly produce current on the
secondary - we know otherwise!

I wasn't joking with my comment regarding the transformer
analogy. In an electrical transformer the charge in the secondary is
*already there* as free charge in the conductors. The magnetic field
in the transformer causes them to move and form a current. My fluid
transformer analogy as the same characteristic- the primary system
causes fluid in the secondary system, which is already there, to move
and form a flow.

[walters]

thanks Rob i like that one about the fluid already there

[Satch12879]

Rob:

I dig that semi pneumatic piston analogy for a "fluid transformer." Didn't think of that... so I guess that's why I do structures and not pipes :mrgreen:.

The water comparison is a stretch.  Fluids in a pipe and electrons in a wire do move differently as I seem to recall.

No one's going to give a stab at why there's no pressure at the end of a shower spray, eh?

Here's the answer: You can't, by definition, have pressure at an open jet.

[object88]

Dangit, you answered it too quickly, Satch.  I was going to postulate that once the water hits open air it's "seperated" and doesn't have any applied force (other than gravity).  It's continued travel is attributable to momentum (kinetic energy).  Pressure only exists due to confines-- i.e., if there is nothing to resist force, no pressure is built.  Upon exitting the pipe, the (majority of the?) confines are removed, allowing forces to act without restriction.

Is that vaguely in line with what you're saying?

[walters]

1.) i was thinking like 2 water Falls on opposite sides with a invisable
    bridge to get the Force or acceleration across some how?


2.) a voltage Drop is different then less water
    a Resistor will put opposition in the pipe like to get less water
   a voltage Drop this is different than a resistor because it not
   just putting a opposition but also the Fiction of the water is different also im guessing ?

3.) whats the difference by using one resistor have a voltage drop
    and using 2 resistors to give a voltage drop?

    they both are using opposition to limit the flow of current but lets
     look have the voltage drop also whats it doing to the voltage
   
    for the water voltage is the pressure so its limits the pressure
    and fiction of the Voltage

[ian87]

... and fiction of the Voltage

fiction of the voltage, eh? maybe that's why my DIY pedals never work.

[walters]

1.) i was saying the Fiction in Pressure , Pressure is voltage
     in water analogy


2.) The Tape head acts like a Transducer or a inductor coil
    the the Tape it self is the other another transducer
    the tape head and tape it self= like a transformer
    so the tape head is the primary side
    the tape itselfis the secondary side