Mil spec wire in stompboxes - all hype or not?

[BlackFlag1313]

Anybody have an opinion on whether using mil spec wire makes an audible difference in a stompbox?  Where can you order it?

[mikeb]

It probably just means you're paying 100%-1000% extra for the same thing!

Seriously though, it won't make a difference - as long as the wire is physically ok and has low resistance and capacitance (for the shielded varieties) you can use the cheapest wire you can get - or find.

Mike

[toneman]

Depend on what U mean by "mil spec".
Now, teflon-coated wire, used in practically all military
installations, *is* excellent wire.
Won't melt like the PVC wire U get from Mouser or Digikey.
Now, if U R looking for "mojo wire", for "better tone",
well, step right up, have i got a deal 4 U....infinite frequency
response wire.  Guaranteed to make any guitar player sound
like EricClapton.  Go for the wire, Luke.  And a cup o'java 2.
staywired
tone

[The Tone God]

Hype.

Andrew

[R.G.]

hype

[R.G.]

The military specifies many things that may or may not make a difference to you. For instance mil-spec logic circuits are specified ...slower... than the civilian counterpart, for in-spec operation over a wider temp range. That kind of thing doesn't help.

[davebungo]

I agree with Toneman.  Yes, there will be no audible difference, but the wire itself is much nicer to work with.  You can make up proper screen terminations with heatshrink sleeving etc and the wire does not suffer heat damage and does not shrink.  Rework is much easier as you are much less likely to damage the insulation in the process.  So, if I had the choice and the price was reasonable, I would buy it every time.  The screened stuff I used to work with also had a much smaller cross-section than the equivalent commercial grade stuff.  This may be an advantage if you are wiring up complex looms similar to some of Cornish's equipment.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

"audible difference"?

Never in a billion years.

[gtrmac]

Electric guitars and guitar amps are not even Hi Fi to begin with, and then you are adding a stomp box with Lo Fi specs too. So you end up with a pretty narrow bandwidth and you will certainly not hear any difference from the wire.

[Satch12879]

Slightly OT but have any of you read the specs dealing with the destruction and disposal of hard disc and other magnetic data storage media? It's outright lunacy!

[Doug_H]

Teflon is nice for tube amps because of all the wiring involved. It is stiff and stays in place. Also doesn't melt as easily which is handy. Not saying it's "all that" but I like working with it on amp builds.

As for pedals I don't think it's that significant. IMO, if you have to brag about your choice of wire in order to sell a pedal, it must not be that interesting to begin with...

Doug

[Doug_H]

For instance mil-spec logic circuits are specified ...slower... than the civilian counterpart, for in-spec operation over a wider temp range. That kind of thing doesn't help.

Flight hardware that is sent into space needs to be radiation-hardened, which slows things down considerably too.

Doug

[puretube]

audibility: MoJo...

[davebungo]

For instance mil-spec logic circuits are specified ...slower... than the civilian counterpart, for in-spec operation over a wider temp range. That kind of thing doesn't help.

Flight hardware that is sent into space needs to be radiation-hardened, which slows things down considerably too.

Doug

How does that work then i.e. the slowing down effect?

[Mark Hammer]

Here is another thing I cannot overemphasize enough:

WHAT "WORKS" IN HI FIDELITY AUDIO REPRODUCTION OF WIDE BANDWIDTH MUSICAL SIGNALS WILL NOT NECESSARILY "WORK" OR EVEN HAVE ANY IMPACT (AND OCCASIONALLY DETRIMENTAL IMPACT - THINK THE "ADVANTAGES" OF LOADING DOWN SINGLE-COIL PICKUPS) ON SINGLE-INSTRUMENT SIGNAL SOURCES OF A ROCK AND ROLL NATURE.

If one made a habit of recording low-impedance pickups directly into the mixing board, then MAYBE mil-spec wire MIGHT have a beneficial impact.  How on earth it could have ANY audible impact once normal high-impedance pickups go through several stages of distortion into a 4 x 12" cabinet that rolls off starting around 5khz is beyond both myself and all reason.

Some stuff IS mojo.
Some stuff is not mojo in the hi-fi sound reproduction domain, but IS mojo when it comes to musical instruments.
Some stuff is not mojo when it comes to music reproduction or recording individual wide bandwidth instruments like acoustic guitar, drums, piano, or synth, but IS mojo when it comes to medium to low bandwidth sources like electric guitar.

Ya gotta keep 'em separated.

[BlackFlag1313]

Thanks for the opinions.  I'll spend my money on other stuff than hype wire.   I've seen some boutiques claiming that they use only mil spec wire for utimate sound quality.  I guess you have to hype something to market yet another TS clone.

[casey]

This reminds me of a power cord that was 250 bucks for  a guitar amp claiming that it will make your rig sound better...never mind the cheap romex the electricity has to go through to get to that 250 dollar power cord.  What about a $15 (at best) 1/4" cable feeding that "boutique" TS Clone...and the 5 cent resistors that signal has to go through.....

We could go on and on couldn't we !  

[Doug_H]

Flight hardware that is sent into space needs to be radiation-hardened, which slows things down considerably too.

Doug

How does that work then i.e. the slowing down effect?

This applies to digital embedded systems stuff. In order to make the hardware more robust and less susceptible to radioactive particles, larger geometry is typically used when manufacturing the chips. This limits cpu speeds, for example. The high speeds of your desktop PC are typically achieved through using smaller geometry in the chips.

Of course, this has absolutely nothing to do with wire types used in pedals, just an aside in response to R.G.'s mil-spec comments.

Doug

[davebungo]

Has anyone actually compared the cost of Teflon orPTFE coated wire against the run-of-the-mill PVC stuff out of interest?  

I think we need to separate the debate a little here.  I think mostly everyone agrees that there will be no audible benefit to using so called mil-spec wire and it seems to be getting a bad press as a result.  What should be getting a bad press is the hype surounding things like this.  Mil-spec wire is definitely better "quality" and easier to work with in my opinion.  If the cost isn't prohibitive (I don't know if this is the case) then I see only good reason to use it.  It certainly ain't any worse.

[Doug_H]

Has anyone actually compared the cost of Teflon orPTFE coated wire against the run-of-the-mill PVC stuff out of interest?  

I think we need to separate the debate a little here.  I think mostly everyone agrees that there will be no audible benefit to using so called mil-spec wire and it seems to be getting a bad press as a result.  What should be getting a bad press is the hype surounding things like this.  Mil-spec wire is definitely better "quality" and easier to work with in my opinion.  If the cost isn't prohibitive (I don't know if this is the case) then I see only good reason to use it.  It certainly ain't any worse.

I haven't done a direct comparison lately but teflon wire is more expensive.

I don't see a practical benefit with using teflon in a pedal because pedal wire runs are usually so short. As I mentioned before, the main benefit for me is how the stiffness aids in avoiding clutter in the longer runs required in amp wiring.

FWIW, I have seen a NASA tech brief that mentioned that in the long term teflon absorbs moisture and deteriorates. Not sure what "long term" is, but that could actually make it a worse candidate. Haven't looked at the data in a while, I'd have to dig that up.

I agree that there may be other advantages/disadvantages of different types of wire that get glossed over when people start discussing the audio mojo stuff. For example, I prefer multi-strand over single-strand. Many prefer single-strand because of ease of working with it but I just don't trust it.

Doug