"Blue Magic's on Ebay" .... ????

[Ed G.]

Well, that being what it is...eventually this has the effect of impeding any progress of new designs. Those who develop new designs will likely keep them to themselves in the future and the DIY community will gravitate to the cloning of already-existing designs (which isn't a far stretch, that seems to be where most people are at, anyway)

[Paul Marossy]

A licensing fee is a good idea, but how would it be enforced? And is it worth it? I couldn't even afford a lawyer for one hypothetical copyright infringement case! It wouldn't surprise me if people like this guy on ebay are banking on just that - the typical DIY'er doesn't have the resources to go after someone for stealing their work.

[Torchy]

Id like to ask an open question to the gurus on this forum ...

We all know that representatives of commercial pedal manufacturers, and in some cases the individual "booteekers" lurk and post here. Anyone who reads half a dozen threads knows who the true designers and innovators are. Also, certain designs (AMZ Boosts, BSIAB etc) are incredibly well known and respected.

So .....

1) have any of you been approached by a commercial manufacturer to either design or collaborate on a design ?
2) if not yet (and if they were to), would you accept ?

I have a fair understanding of Puretube's (Ton's) position on this. If you feel you cant answer then I respect that, Im just interested in how far the big boys research "new" designs and popularity :oops:

[toneman]

hey DIYers,

i emailed the dude auctioning the fuzzes(in UK),
here's what he wrote back 2 me------

"Thank you for your email. I have written permission for the sale of all my products and all circuit boards are purchased directly from the designer/ vendor responsible. Some samples and discriptions are as you say duplicated but I have written permission for this. Travesty Dog"

B 4 accusations fly,  ask questions first.
staylegal
tone

[wampcat1]

I guess I can relate from my perspective...I don't sell many custom pedals, but I do very good with the diy stuff at http://www.guitartone.net/.

I do notice all the time about people using my mods and deciding to enter into the marketplace. It used to frustrate me, but now I just figure that it's GOING to happen, no matter what I do, so I concentrate on staying one step ahead at all times.

For example, recently there was a guy on ebay using my mods, in particular my sd-1 mods, and even renamed mine. (I have mods like the 'chocolate-mod' and he had renamed it the "mocha-mod" and silly things like that). It really is the nature of the 'net I suppose.

Let me add that I don't mind people using my mods for profit, as long as they state that it is a mod from either indyguitarist.com or guitartone.net.

That said, I've noticed that the people that still ideas don't profit much or stay in business very long -- once they find out they have to provide support for the circuits, many of them find it isn't as 'easy' as they thought, or they just plain don't know enough to provide support.

My $.02 anyway.

Take care,
Brian

[wampcat1]

Id like to ask an open question to the gurus on this forum ...

We all know that representatives of commercial pedal manufacturers, and in some cases the individual "booteekers" lurk and post here. Anyone who reads half a dozen threads knows who the true designers and innovators are. Also, certain designs (AMZ Boosts, BSIAB etc) are incredibly well known and respected.

So .....

1) have any of you been approached by a commercial manufacturer to either design or collaborate on a design ?
2) if not yet (and if they were to), would you accept ?

I have a fair understanding of Puretube's (Ton's) position on this. If you feel you cant answer then I respect that, Im just interested in how far the big boys research "new" designs and popularity :oops:

I don't think I'm an 'innovator' by any means...maybe in marketing effects, but I dunno.  :oops:  :lol:

I guess Keeley and I have talked before about collaborating on some things, but nothing ever really came of it. After all this time, I've still never talked to AM, though it seems he's a very nice guy.

To be 100% honest, BIG money is not in boutique effects...we are a small majority, and don't make up a large percentage in sales for the large corporations. They rely on newer guitarists who buy every distortion pedal under the sun trying to sound like Zach Wylde, Steve Vai, etc. rather than practicing. Most of us like the boutique stuff because we can hear the difference between a sd-1 and a (name your boutique overdrive here).

Again, my $.02 opinion!  :lol:

Take care,
Brian

[wampcat1]

To be 100% honest, BIG money is not in boutique effects...we are a small majority, and don't make up a large percentage in sales for the large corporations. They rely on newer guitarists who buy every distortion pedal under the sun trying to sound like Zach Wylde, Steve Vai, etc. rather than practicing. Most of us like the boutique stuff because we can hear the difference between a sd-1 and a (name your boutique overdrive here).

Again, my $.02 opinion!  :lol:

Take care,
Brian

A good example of this is the new digitech series...I mean come on...does any experienced guitar player REALLY think they are going to nail the sounds of hendrix or clapton?!  :lol:

[Clipped]

A licensing fee is a good idea, but how would it be enforced? And is it worth it? I couldn't even afford a lawyer for one hypothetical copyright infringement case! It wouldn't surprise me if people like this guy on ebay are banking on just that - the typical DIY'er doesn't have the resources to go after someone for stealing their work.

Paul -
I can't speak for Mojotron, but I think he's talking about doing something VOLUNTARY to help out all the great people who share their ideas with us along with a licensing "program".

Also, we can do other things. BT at Runoffgroove has been very kind in answering questions for me via email, and to show my support of ROG, I purchased a T-shirt and a couple of magnets. Now in retrospect, I should have just sent him some cash, since he only gets a small portion of that, but at least they get some advertising (Displayed my Fetzer build on the shirt).

I'd say anybody that would like to show their appreciation should do something like that, buy a board from Jack Orman, buy parts from Aron, or flat out send 5-10 bucks to your favorite. Those are just examples of a couple of people - There are many more, so I won't start a list and offend anybody by accidentally leaving them off.

I think ANYTHING that gets a little extra to these guys shows them that you are supportive. Maybe your friend gave you 20 bucks to build something for him - Post a note in the pedal stating "Thanks to XXX for the circuit". Write to the orginator of that pedal, send him X bucks and tell him how much you appreciate his work. Even a simple thank you (if you're strapped for cash) to these guys may be enough to keep them sharing!

Maybe a poor man's licensing could be used, such as a "Seal Of Approval" on a sellers webpage for the particular designer (or a list on the originators) and a 5-10 percent licensing fee paid for each pedal. I realize this is an on your honor thing, and you'd also have to rely on the board members, etc to report improper use of the license on a web page, but it would be a start.  Even if we had a list of people and their "licensing" fee, at least the decent humans would send in the money if they sold something. Maybe that'll work (or not work) as well as computer shareware, but who knows. I suppose a disclaimer on build quality would be in order though...

Here's one idea I had that I was going to present to Aron, but it will fit well in this discussion:

I can make vinyl diecut decals on a cutter that's hooked to my PC. My intent was to cut up a number of white www.DIYStompBoxes.com decals and GIVE them to Aron so he could offer them for sale at 2-3 bucks a piece. That way all the money goes directly to Aron, and everybody can show their support at a very economical price. This could also be ROG, R.G., AMZ, or anybody.

Just ideas out loud, but I think we can do something to help those that take alot of their time to help the "DIY challenged".

Ron

Good post to show the weasels though - Keep that up!

[hilbi]

Overall I'm not that worried about stuff I've put in the public domain though. I don't post things I don't want to share. I don't have an issue with people wanting to make money. But what miffs me about this kind of stuff is when they don't ask you for permission or acknowledge you in any way. They basically carbon-copy your effort and BTW take all the credit too.

It is like writing/recording your own cd, bringing it out in public, then someone else copies your cd, writes his name on it and sells it.

That must be very frustrating. Is there really no law prevents these things, like with cd's or so?

[wampcat1]

Overall I'm not that worried about stuff I've put in the public domain though. I don't post things I don't want to share. I don't have an issue with people wanting to make money. But what miffs me about this kind of stuff is when they don't ask you for permission or acknowledge you in any way. They basically carbon-copy your effort and BTW take all the credit too.

It is like writing/recording your own cd, bringing it out in public, then someone else copies your cd, writes his name on it and sells it.

That must be very frustrating. Is there really no law prevents these things, like with cd's or so?

Yes, there are laws, but it takes money to ENFORCE them, as you would need a lawyer. Even then, the money it costs you usually won't outweigh the money you would receive. In this example, this guy MAY have sold 5 of them...if that. Even if you are awarded 25-50% of his profits, you are only looking at a couple hundred bucks max. A good lawyer will cost several hundred/hour at least.

Take care,
Brian

[Paul Marossy]

Clipped-

Oh, I realize this would be a voluntary licensing thing. I was referring to the violators of this agreement. You can count on there being some of those.

Anyhow, I agree with what you say. I occasionally have people donate money to me for my work on the Seymour Duncan Convertible and my website in general. It's always a nice gesture. I also like the sticker idea. I'm surprised no one has thought of that before!  

[Doug_H]

Well, before things get completely out of control...

B 4 accusations fly, ask questions first.

Sage advice. Thanks for emailing the guy. We have to remember not to assume things before we get the facts.

I have thought about this a lot in the last few months, I think we should organize some effort to promote Ed, Doug, Jack's.... designs in a manner where the final product is "Officially Licensed" - meaning that a portion of the profits for the sale (as well as full recognition) would go to the appropriate place - the designer.

I appreciate the thought, but... For my part I'm not interested in $$ even if you could actually manage something like this (which would be a nightmare IMO). When you put something in the public domain it is basically out of your control at that point. We all (should) know that going in. My only point was a plea for some common courtesy and basic manners when dealing with something that someone else produced.

From the above comment this may be much ado about nothing anyway. Sounds like the guy may have JD's permission.

1) have any of you been approached by a commercial manufacturer to either design or collaborate on a design ?

I've been approached by a few. No big corporations.

Doug

[Paul Marossy]

I've been approached by a few. No big corporations.

I bet if Matchless made the Octal Fatness, it would be a popular amp.  :wink:

Doug hit the nail on the head by saying that "when you put something in the public domain it is basically out of your control at that point" - this is basically how I see it. That is why I say that if you don't want someone to steal your stuff, don't ever put it up on the web! (and even if you don't share it and it's on the market, someone will reverse engineer it and put it on the web)

[travestydog]

Ouch stop throwing those stones
Sounds like I've upset a lot of people. I have Just sent Toneman/ToneB the below email and think you all need an explaination:

'I am currently trying to find the email in my backups that I received from JD of GGG and my questions on copyrights just before I ordered some circuit boards. I hate rip off merchants as much as you. I thought it would be a nice idea for guitarist/musicians who are interrested in learning electronics to be able to buy a complete KIT of parts AND indepth instructions on how the electronics work, not just a schematic. GGG does not (or as far as I am aware) currently sell complete KITS. For a begginer in electronics the GGG website and information (while excellent) would go right above a begginers head. To be honest the amount of profit after import duty/ parts/ labour/ Ebay/Paypal fees is absolutely minimal and I am having second thoughts about the whole idea. As far as the website goes it is admitedly rough around the edges and short of a bit of in depth, but I have only just started and these things take time.  If GGG would like a royalty payment I would be happy to pay but this was not asked for. I am willing to join the furom to explain myself and if it is that big an issue I will forget the whole idea. I have only just started selling KITS and currently have sold just one. The customer was very satisfied and pleased with the level of guidance I gave him when coming up against problems.'

Further more I have in, no way, ever tried to pass off any of GGG circuit boards/Kits as my own work and have always been completely honest about the origins of the design/PCB's hence the fact I did not call the Blue Magic something else like Blue Tone etc. I shall be contacting GGG ASAP and apologising if some kind of mis-understanding  has occured. Also the enclosure shown is perfect for stomp boxes as it is just the right size, is anosided so you don't have to paint it if you don't want and contrary to comments has a slide out bottom (or top) that allows easy access. It is a hammond enclosure available from Maplin or Mouser.

Let the stoning begin...

[puretube]

Torchy: I do have a strict position on this:

I started lurking here for 1 purpose: keep folks from copying my circuits, and posting my schems.
(I came here first, when g**gle turned up somebody boasting around having the schems of my stuff.
That was about 2 years after this article in Harmony-Central about me was published:
http://www.harmony-central.com/Events/MusikMesse99/Guitar_Accessories/ ).
(I didn`t have a PC/internet those days...).

1.) at that Frankfurt music show, I have indeed been approached by several commercial manufacturers for the stuff I had there.

2.) There had only ever been 3 names in this biz, up to that date,
I would co-operate with.
Luckily my most favorite one was among those who approached me...

I`m not a representative of that company - just a (booteekish) designer, that has granted them an exclusive license to produce my developments.

This concerns a time-limited licence - after which I intend to market my stuff >unspoiled<.

I regard my stuff being innovative,
and where it concerns a "known effect" (e.g.: "Tremolo"),
it is freshly designed anew from scratch, rather than another modded
soandso-copy.

Besides my first goal being a regular here,
I found this a nice place to talk to similar-minded people,
acquired what I may call a few friends (you know who you are :wink: ),
and regard it a nice "crossword-puzzle-like" passtime, discussing sound/circuit-topographic issues.

Sometimes I personnally do regret to have to be a bit mystical about what I know/think, but I have bills to pay in the future, too.
(and be assured y`all: you`re not helping me too much with that at all -
in fact monitoring the web is a nasty habit like TV and other intellectual drugs...).

IMHO, all the "biggies" have creative, innovative, knowledgable people gathered around them, who got more important things to do/develop,
than checking through DIY-sites (which haven`t existed at all in the hey-days of FX-ing!), and beg/steal/borrow from them...

[David]

Let the stoning begin...

I don't think there SHOULD be a stoning -- or any bullets, either.  This guy deserves credit for checking in here and coming clean.  As long as he and JD dealt in good faith, we have no sin here, folks.

Also, note carefully that he displays grace under pressure...

[Paul Marossy]

travestydog-

If you have permission from GGG, that's cool. We just see a lot of this sort of thing - where people are blatantly stealing stuff from contributors here, so it's a touchy subject.  I appreciate that you are willing to come to the forum to explain things.

[Ed G.]

Hey, my bad. I had heard before from JD about someone selling J. Nagy's Blue Magic on Ebay and thought this was the same thing. I apologize for making this something it wasn't.

[puretube]

Overall I'm not that worried about stuff I've put in the public domain though. I don't post things I don't want to share. I don't have an issue with people wanting to make money....

It is like writing/recording your own cd, bringing it out in public, then someone else copies your cd, writes his name on it and sells it.
...

IMHO: it`s more like: they copy it, write your name on it,
profit from your name/fame, sell it cheaper (no R&D/time costs involved),
and you`re out of biz...  :x

[barret77]

Hey, now that things are better around this issue, I heard something about a sweet, beautiful, glorious BSIAB III coming up sometime soon?