Possibly OT: Did you ever get the feeling.....?

[Mark Hammer]

...that when you go to a place like tonefactor, MusicToyz, or any of the other pedal specialty shops, that many of the distortion-related pedals produced by all the boo-teek-ers are essentially the same circuit?  (You know, all that stuff in a 1590B or BB with a chicken-head knobs, an LED and a 3PDT stompswitch) I'm not saying that anyone is stealing IP, or anything like that.  It's just that you get the feeling that there are hundreds of folks cranking the same stuff out without any awareness of each other or what other "companies" (individuals, usually) are doing or sticking in their pedals.  It's not BAD stuff, as stuff goes, and I suppose there is something to be said for things like component selection, or build quality, but you easily get the sense that it's like sending home 300 grade 8 students to prepare for a science fair, and they all come back to school with - you guessed it - a 3-d mockup of the solar system.  Fine, but now how does the consumer decide other than on the basis of rumour, reputation, or celebrity endorsements?

A buddy of mine makes a decent Ross Comp clone, and has incorporated a couple of my mods.  He gets raves from some corners.  Pete Anderson gets interviewed in GP and waves his arms like a madman about Robert Keeley's Ross clone.  You know what?  They're both good but I bet you they don't differ any more than a well-made hamburger served up in Vancouver, Duluth, Manchester, and Brisbane.  Of course, we expect that it should be possible for people in different parts of the world to prepare the same standard dish, do a decent job, and have it taste as good, and even identical, in every locale.  But we don't perceive or present them as being entirely different dishes, simply because they were made somewhere else.  I guess what bugs me about the glut of pedals is that they get portrayed as being different or improved products by both the blurb accompanying them from the manufacturer, and by the writeups, reviews, and whatever comments the distributors want to add.

In fairness, it's not like any of the distributors require an authorized (and notarized) schematic before agreeing to carry a product, and will decline to carry a product line if there is any resemblance in circuit to one they already carry.  I guess in that regard, it's not too different from an auto-parts store that carries half a dozen brands of 10-W30 motor oil - certainly none of those stores verifies that the products a different price point are actually different beyond packaging and price.  At the same time, how many people have to waste their time and effort building and hustling Tube Screamer, Fuzz Face, Ross Compressor, and Rangemaster clones?  We GET it, and we're happy that YOU'RE happy with how well you can make a pedal.  Now get over it, and do something interesting and different.

I also worry for the hundreds or maybe even thousands of young people who jeopardize their future with the notion that they can make money from pedals because of the illusion that they have something different to offer when actually they don't.  It's a bit like somebody mortgaging their home and sinking the money into a restaurant that makes and serves only toasted white bread.  Yeah, I like white toast too, but ain't none of us gonna support a family with it.

[smashinator]

I think your burger metaphor is pretty apt, in more ways than one.  How many people do you know that go on vacation/travel for work and seek out the place that has the hamburger most like what they're used to?  Most people prefer things that are familiar to them.  So, if everyone is familiar with the tube screamer/fuzz face/whatever, chances are that they're going to want MORE of that.  But, some people can afford the Kobe Beef burger (and want to say that's what they eat), while others can only afford a White Castle burger.  

Builders know that some people want the Kobe burger, so there are lots of them trying to sell rich dummies a spendy burger.

Now, let's say that someone comes along and invents a pizzaburger.  A couple of daring souls try it out and find that it's good!  They tell their friends, who try it and like it so much they seek out pizzaburgers on their own later (and probably tell THEIR friends about it.).   A pizza burger is significantly different from the other burgers, but still fits a basic  formula that appeals to people.

Obviously a few daring souls will come along and come up with something really different.  weinerschnitzel, shall we say?  If people find it appealing, then they'll start to eat THAT in addition to their burgers.

To wrap up this pre-lunch metaphor, the kids who want to make a living making pedals would do best to invent pizzaburgers and weinerschnitzel, because the burger market is already pretty saturated.

***edit*** yep, it's friday.  Anyone else feeling burned out?***end edit***

[petemoore]

I guess it depends on what you like on your hamburger...as far as getting good ketchup and mayo or mustard...I think they're pretty available almost everywhere.
 I haven't seen a conceptually unique hamburger for as long as I've known they exist...kind of like Fuzzes/Octaves etc. the basics have to be there [Clipping for Fuzz and Octave Harmonics for OCtaves]...other than that there are myriad variations...but like dogs, though the owner of one may think his dog is much unique, it still has two eyes, four legs, and is very similar to other dogs in more ways than it is different.
 Fuzzes are the same way, you have clipping type and amount, and voicing choices, but every Fuzz I know of Boosts and Clips. Some transistor clipping Fuzzes can be made to sound similar in most ways to a diode to ground clipper, then there's the FB loop clippers...other than that [discounting digital...which is generally just a replication of existing Dists] I don't want to say 'never' but I haven't seen any HUGE Blockbuster innovations like for say when the FF came to being known for the first times...it can certainly be replicated, but the impact the FF had on 'what a guitar sounds like' is of a profundity that is, I think, History, and I doubt it's impact on what 'Fuzz' is 'supposed' to sound like will occur again.
 As far as 'new superpopular' Fuzz designs, BSIAB would bear mention as good topic for discussion...still it does what Fuzzes do, if a Little better...I'm assuming here...from recent reports...it is percieved as an outstanding design...still its a Fuzz Box.
 I am very happy with the fact that I can build a tone, using snippets from well known and less than well known recipes, and creating a tone 'all my own'...though I'm sure there are rival or similar sounds out there.
 I see it as 'cielings' on how much fuzz sounds 'good' and what voicings one can 'get away' with [how much of a bloomy bass sound can you get and retain note definition...how much high end sizzle can be attained without ears having to bleed...how much Fuzz can a signal have and still sound like a note or a chord, how much gain is available without noise floor driving you nuts!].
 As much as I tweek these pedals, If I'd gone bouteeque, I'd be paying one heck of alot of shipping charges to get where I am today, tone wise...I really have to say there's no way I'd have gotten this far starting off on a tone search by shipping a pedal far away...

[Kilby]

Thank you Mark,

Maybe I'm tired and need a trip home to see my family, but I totally agree with you on this and to me this is in no way OT.

I think this is also why almost everybody is so protective of Mr Vex. He produces his own designs, and happily he marches to a different drum, like some of the proper contributers here (dont worry, I have no allusions of being such), who are all generous with their time, ideas and designs.

Having noticed the sheer number of Ge boosters being reviewed by UK guitar magazines, yet they all seem to be clones (if not clones then certainly non identical twins) of the old Dallas Rangemaster, theyr'e expensive and non original.

For example I have taken my tweaked BMP into guitar shops both in Belfast and London and been offered a lot of cash for it (and a chance of selling it's siblings). But it's only a BMP, I did nothing cept build something that I couldn't buy at the time. But she sure sounds sweet

If somebody wants to 'bet the farm' on other peoples designs (small tweaks don't count folks beleive me) then go ahead risk it, but don't cry when it all goes wrong.

It's also the reason I chipped in on the Berhinger discussion, if it's OK for somebody to do on a bedroom (ooh errr Missus) scale then it's fine to do on an industrial scale (but with a lower cost to the consumer).



Kilby...

[MartyB]

"There's nothing you can do that can't be done."  "..nothing you can make that can't be made."


 - John "I've-got-blisters-on-me-fingers" Lennon

[Kilby]

BTW,

just to add I'm not a grumpy old man that sees nothing good out there as I truely love the Moonrock by Wyllie even if it is a bit scrambler like.

Kilby...

[Paul Marossy]

Can you say "How many ways can you package a Tube Screamer clone?"  :lol:

[WGTP]

An interesting thing that I learned here at the forum is that one of the pedals may have a capacitor in it that is twice as large as the other so the CONSUMER tries them out and either thinks one has nice bass or is muddy and the other has tight bass or is thin sounding.  Some with the high frequencies.  

Another thing is one has a 500K gain pot and the other a 1meg pot so either it is too distorted or has a nice "over the top" sound.  

Just a single part change could make or break ya.  

[nelson]

The fact the designs are clones is plain and simply deceptive to the average consumer. However, making effects that are no longer in production by their original manufacturer is providing a service. It is the fact that the booteekers aim to decieve consumers and claim their pedal is original the best thing on the market just about anything to justify the huge mark up.

[petemoore]

`Well what I REALLY wanted was an original low mileage Model T.
 Can you make me an original Model T ?
 Ok.. I've got my Model T Clone, but it doesn't perform the way I thought it would...I think I'll have a 440 Hemi with Nitrous installed, then I'll have the ultimate something'.
 Ok...the hemi shakes the frame wayy tooo much, I haven't been able to use 3rd gear, and I'm afraid to use it.
 To make anything work 'right' IMO, you'll have to do some SERIOUS Engineering, or Copious amounts of trial and error....and probably BOth. My definition of 'right' may differ from someone elses...right to me is what stays in the chain...after surviving countless A/B tests, and if like the genre.
 Hint...race them against one another, and modding them one at a time, whether you're going for ultra smooth, Super Racy, or some other niche'.
 If all you're doing is casual driving, perhaps no Racey, Sleek, or Smooth 'running units are required.
 The top racers have at least someone eyeing, measuring, calculating, and implenting known, new, or 'secret' Race Mods...some of these factory units have astounding performances...but may show improvement if tuned/tried/[performances noted]/tuned, to the type of roads you travel.
 From what I understand, Pretty much All the Parts and informationals are out there...it's just how good am I at reading, comprehending, and applying knowledge. This means you can build anything that can be build ['nothing you can do that can't be done']...I'm beginning to realize I can't be, nor have I ever been, John Lennon.
 Perhaps the Racers or Modcars' in question is tuned perfectly right out of the box.
 Maybe these units would do better with improved rubber or better speakers and cabinet.
 The more things in your chain that can be called into judgement...you be the judge...it's your race if you like...be fair :wink:

[Mark Hammer]

Thanks for the support, gents.

Again, I respect the efforts of those who make these pedals.  I respect those who are willing to take a chance in distributing them.  I also respect those who are willing to spend a little more and take a chance on a newcomer, and respect those who enjoy classic tones and find nothing wrong in riding that horse a little further.  I don't think ANY of the 1590BB+chickenhead crowd is trying to dupe anyone, rip anyone off, or doesn't CARE about making a decent product.  I am confident they ALL take pride in what they produce and sell it for as competitive a price as they can afford to.

If there were three companies making TS clones, that would be one thing, and I would have no cause for quarrel or discontent.  Rather, there are a whole LOT of people making what is likely the same damn pedal, and no mechanism, really, otherthan perhaps a wise and insightful distributor who might say "Well, sounds pretty good to me, but you know, we sell 5 cosmetically different versions of those already".

Perhaps the problem IS that they are boutique makers, none of whom enjoys the sort of widespread distribution that "name" manufacturers do.  The rest of us browse through Vintage Guitar or some website, and we have never seen one of those pedals up close, or heard samples of similar pedals in close enough sequence that we could say "Gez, those DO sound pretty similar".  We *think* they are different because we have little or no opportunity to realize otherwise.  Of course, the boutique maker who strolls into a local store and convinces them to buy 10 of his/her pedals also has little idea of just how many other people make a similar product, and probably could not have any idea unless they approached it like a business person and did the market research, exhaustively scanning all commercial sites to find out what's out there.

I have or hold no blame for anyone in all of this.  It's just not a healthy situation.

[Kilby]

Thanks for the support, gents.
I don't think ANY of the 1590BB+chickenhead crowd is trying to dupe anyone, rip anyone off, or doesn't CARE about making a decent product.  I am confident they ALL take pride in what they produce and sell it for as competitive a price as they can afford to.

I agree, I don't mind 'reproductions' as not everybody is interested enough, or handy enough with a soldering iron to DIY. And some of the vintage prices are just plain silly.

I just think that when there is so little to distinguish between so many of the boutique products out there that a very hard lesson will be learnt.

It may be sad but if your product isn't sufficently different then nobody really has a reason to purchase it. That should have been looked at when the business plan is being worked on.

The market will not always be this bouyant.

Rather than yet another treble boost, TS, FF, overdrive or BMP how about a review of a Scrambler clone or a real nice trem or flanger or something.

Unfortunitely it's always a case of 'more of the same'.

I have no desire to see anybody burnt (builder or customer), but there is only so much sympathy to go around, and the caviats have been mentioned so many times on this forum.

Perhaps there should be a business forum set up, so as many of the things to consider are all in one place.

Kilby...

[mojotron]

In the end it will all come down to survival of the fittest....

And, I'm clearly not a Darwanist... but as I see it natural selection is very much at play - if someone bets all they have on making pedals - whether they make-it or not is not so much a factor of the pedal market - its a factor of their judgement/ ability to survive. If they didn't loose everything trying to sell clones of pedals on shrinking margins... they would have lost it trying something else... buying into the us equity market in early 2001... .

Now, you look at some company that is making it as a cloner of pedals and you see that they survive in a market where they have to be oportunistic/preditory - irrespective of feelings of the prey (other designers, pedal makers,... perhaps customers)... And you see this in the attitudes of guys making it as a cloner. I think to make it in that space either you understand that you sell pedals to eat, or you make the decision to not eat or move on to something else.... which is going to give you a focus that is likely going to lend itself to over-promoting (lying to use a different word) if that is what it takes.

Good product promotion is based on building customer trust and differentiation.

So, to summarize what I think on this... I think we can all see through the fake-differentiation - false claims.... And, we would all love to see more true differentiation - clearly ZVex is all over that... but, in the natural world either one will work for survival. It's up to the individual whether they want to go the t-rex route - where it only requires a pea sized brain, but also requires the right ecosystem; or the adaptive route - which is going to require constant change, but handles environmental change.

With market saturation occuring - the cloners will have to choose a different method of differentiation as a factor of shrinking margins. Or, delay their death by moving to out-sourcing and change their costs.. but they will die off if they don't adapt... and produce more creative designs... the market will demand it.

[dosmun]

Are you saying that someone figured out how to clone a Tube Screamer.  :shock:  :wink:

[sean k]

I have been watching trends in society for quite a while because at one time I realised I was a trend setter.Not how you think a trendsetter is but rather one of a small group of people who go out and hang on the cutting edge,well,actually create the cutting edge and are veiwed with a certain disdain by most others and never really manage to make much of a living at it as few without creative abilities will follow and support.So you go off and try something else and,low and behold,a year or two down the track you see that some people where watching and things start to change in the direction that you were going in but  wasn't accepted at the time.Now,of course,something quite interesting starts happening as the new phase gains momentum and those who outwardly scoffed in the past become adherents...and so it goes on as the balance between creativity and security again finds a centre till eventually the tip is back towards conservatism.
So these pedal makers are actually a harbinger of new creativity about to swing into action again and Marks perspective of the situation is the sort of thinking that goes on as the swing starts again.The cloners are somewhat like blocked creatives.They want to do the real creative stuff,and usually convince themselves they actually are,but the security thing is always an issue for them so they go for more of whats already there.The saturation they create will be their own demise(pun intended).
So business,or being there and staying there,and remaining healthily creative and secure enough,is always a balance between those too diametrically opposing poles but...and this is mostly,to my mind,why people fail or succed,is allowing enough perspective to realise the dichotomy actually works on both a micro,self,and a macro,society,set of scales which means the cloners have to put themselves in a position where they are both leading the bigger companies and following them.Leading them by setting new benchmarks but not going too far and setting the bar to high and following by allowing for the natural conservatism of consumers.Its a tricky situation and the cloners are in danger of creating their own demise as the simplicity they apply to aesthetics will soon become a very appealing design philosophy for big business who can afford the research and developement to push their product ahead while using the straight forward barnyard aesthetic of a square box and chicken heads to cut costs right back.
  Maybe....
 And as Somerset Maughan said
unrealistic men have the world fit them while realistic men fit themselves to the world,therefore all progress is due to the unrealistic man.
   or something to that effect.

[petemoore]

I think the 'snobby' TS types need a good kick in the pants to sound better, and that's just what I give them, regularly.
 Now we get along just fine.
 Here's why: DIY !

[puretube]

the folks and their breed, that are being talked about in this topic,
are mainly educated, taught, cloned and excited by fora like this...

(in my (err, honest) opinion... - go stone me for that   ).

[Kilby]

the folks and their breed, that are being talked about in this topic,
are mainly educated, taught, cloned and excited by fora like this...

/me confused, but then it's almost 00:00 and I'm still in work !

Kilby...

[MartyB]

"Shove me in the shallow water before I get too deep."  

 - Edie "What-I-am-is-what-I-am" Brickell/New Bohemians

[puretube]

one of the best envelope-followah solos ever...