Possibly OT: Did you ever get the feeling.....?

[brad]

...and don't think "boutique fatigue" isn't being felt amongst the average guitar playing joe either, as Guitar World magazine said in one of their boutique pedal reviews:

"Sometimes it seems like every asshole with a soldering gun, a can of spray paint, and a Radio Shack within walking distance feels qualified to build a boutique fuzz box and charge an arm and a leg for it.  Of course, we guitarists only have ourselves to blame, as we have no problem shelling out $250 for the new Ballbuster Pedal from Bonestomper Designs". [Feb 2002]

...and that was from 3 years ago!

[Paul Marossy]

I guess there is a certain "cool factor" when it comes to "boutique" pedals. That's probably half of the appeal for a lot of cats.

[object88]

...that when you go to a place like tonefactor, MusicToyz, or any of the other pedal specialty shops, that many of the distortion-related pedals produced by all the boo-teek-ers are essentially the same circuit?

With an excess of essentially-the-same-circuit pedals, we get to make choices based on other factors, such as appearance, size, materials, etc.  So, say, if you're in a death metal band, you aren't stuck with a fuzz with butterflies painted on.  Or if you only have 3" left on your pedal board, you can still fit that screamer.  Have a bad habit of literally throwing your equipment around?  Get a steal pedal with a rollbar over the knobs and a well-enforced PCB.

Options are good.  Innovation is still better, though.  

[Doug_H]

I don't think the TS derivatives are all clones per se. I think they have tweaks that different people like for different reasons. These customers don't know electronics and don't have the time or inclination to learn. So instead of spending a week or two at the breadboard and tweaking the TS into one or two pedals they really like, like we do, they go through 5-10 pedals a year searching for "the tone".

I think it's different means to an end.

Doug

[Torchy]

A while back I got numerous requests for vero layouts, including the Phase45. So I layed it out, after about 5 versions I got rid of the ps noise, ground buzzing and such. Then I incorporated the vibe & mix mods, then the bias mod. After building, improving, building, improving I finally got what I wanted. 5 versions in the bin, and I have 1 that I'm proud of.

On friday I took it to my friend's music shop to try it with different guitar/amp combinations. Its in a plain Hammond, no paint or labels. The shop is right next to the university, and after half an hour I had a small crowd round me and Alan (the owner), all guitarists, all asking "what the hell is that - its amazing". Half a dozen guys tried it, playing with the modes and mixes, s/c, humbucker, tube, S/S etc.

One of the guitarists (over 40, pro, not easily conned) asked the bottom line - "how much". Now, what do I tell him. The truth? "Oh, about £30, bit more if its sprayed up", or the boutique view "sorry mate, its a prototype but the shop will be selling them for about £200". He doesn't want to kow about the time taken to lay out, build, match fets, tweak etc. His ears tell him how much it's worth.

I settled for "I can make you one, but I havent costed it up yet". He promptly suggested a figure of "about £150 then mate ?" and I nearly sh*t myself. I asked him why that amount and he said something very apropos to this conversation ...

"I only buy stuff I like, stuff that I can use in different music styles, and stuff that offers something erm different to the Boss sh*t over there".

I now have commissions to build half a dozen, at a fair price, and Alan wants to put a couple in the shop. When I told him I had put the layout up on the forum he went ape. Till I reminded him that none of the guys (and one girl ) who ordered pedals would go anywhere near this forum. If they did, they wouldnt ask me to make them.

[NaBo]

I just read the first 3 posts and now I'm starving for some burgers and pizza... at 6:30 AM!!!   :roll:   Thanks guys!!! ... guess it's what i deserve for being on here at 6:30AM anyway, hunh?

Anyway, bottom line is, I will probably never buy many guitar-related devices other than A) guitars, B) amps ... (and i guess tubes, and strings, and picks, and... nevermind) ... as far as pedals go, you better be The Z, or Paul Perry, or someone like Torchy who takes the effort to make something markedly superior to a 50 dollar mass-produced unit or something I can slap together myself for 30.  That was probably clearly established through the rest of the posts which I haven't read, but I had to say something on topic to justify this post

[Mark Hammer]

Checking back into this thread, again I'm happy with its progress.  Some excellent observations.  Torchy's recent experience perhaps suggests the "purest" boutique route to me.  That is, someone takes a tried and true, works on it, makes it better, makes it more maleable, and produces it - artisan style - to suit the needs of a customer, not a market.  It's not a factory.  It's not a dream of a factory or the presumption of a product line and marketing blurb.  Simply something interesting, made out of love and interest, and thankfully supported by modest startup costs and some just-in-time local marketing.  Ironically, many of the pedal-makers interviewed in Dave Hunter's book started out the same way.  Of course they pretty much all started out before there was so mouch noise introduced into the system by the swing of the pendulum towards the boutique/vintage thing.

I also like Sean's comments.  Like him, I also sense this dialectic between the side of aiming for "classic" tones in dependable fashion, and concommitant desire to make a bit of cash from what we *already* know how to do, and the side of essentially pushing the discipline/profession/technology forward into unexplored or underexplored territory, taking chances, *losing* money and placing one's faith in an adventurous but unknown market.  Cast your mind back a bit and try to imagine the thinking of Mike Beigel, et al. , as Musitronics started to take off.  Would *anybody* these days make a clone of the Bi-Phase, or even invent/market something as outrageous as that was at the time?  Once in a while, yeah.  I don't think Vlad and Dave at Lovetone were quite as adventurous as Musitronics in the grand scheme of things, but they went farther than many would.  One of these days, Zach is going to unharness himself from the 1590B canvas, and paint something IMMENSE.  Heck maybe it IS all about encouraging risk-taking.

Object88's comments are quite cogent too.  For reasons whose importance escape me entirely, appearance and size/shape IS a factor for some musicians.  I certainly wouldn't wish to *prevent* anyone from making or buying something that suits their cosmetic needs.  I guess I just wish it would get sold as "This is the same circuit as X, but we offer it in this chassis for our convenience or aesthetic preferences."  When a cosmetic change is accompanied by promotional blurb that suggests something entirely different or brilliant on the inside, my spidey-senses start tingling.

What would be really, really nice, would be maybe half a dozen companies/makers, tops, who make a TS clone, but they offer a choice of finishes and cases, and include some sockets or dipswitches on the board to custom tune the circuit.

And Ton, I *love* that solo.  It has the stamp of MXR Envelope Filter all over it, regardless of what was actually used to record it.

[Andi]

Well, I don't think I've ever really hidden how my pedals work (though I regard my stuff as a paying hobby, not a business). One is a carefully tuned fuzz face derivative with slightly unusual transistors, the other is a power amp in a pedal. In the UK I sell pedals for about double what a Boss BD-2 goes for (actually, a bit less, I think) but a big chunk of that goes to the retailers - after tools, parts and books my accountant makes sure I break even from a tax point of view.

The switches and loop switches I make aren't rocket science. I make them well (I think) and sell them at a fair price. Most of my orders are for completely custom switchers and I regularly get people saying they were expecting prices to be much higher. Actually, the regular switches listed on the site probably make up a third of my sales, custom ones half and the actual effect pedals only a sixth.

There are a lot of FF and TS clones out there. Quite a few, it seems to me, have been carefully tweaked in one way or another and therefore merit a place in the market. Some, maybe, are less deserving, but when it comes down to it people will only buy things they like the sound of (or at least I'd hope so!).

I personally do it because I enjoy the process of putting the things together (and there's still a buzz when something "new" works) and because prices for a lot of US made stuff over here are still very high, even with the exchange rate so much in the UK's favour.

[R.G.]

Me? I'm happy that a thousand flowers are blooming.

There are a few of us who hung on to building our own in the long dry spell - roughly 1975 to 1992. In that stretch there simply wasn't a base of knowledge or interest for DIY effects. The birth of the internet as a pandemic communications medium let the buried info see light, and now we have every man-jack that can swing a soldering iron opening shop.

Are a lot of them going to lose all or a portion of their shirts? Absolutely. The secret of success at business is held in three principles, one of which is illegal.
(1) prevent anyone else from selling what everyone needs (this one is illegal monopolization)
(2) out-innovate your competitors with something so new and desirable that you're the only one that has it.
(3) sell not-very-exciting products by conducting your business as a business very well; doing stuff like good advertising, good customer service, that kind of thing.

I personally would like to see more of markets work on the thousand-flowers model than see every possible product made by only one or two places. Frankly, the hamburger got awfully dull when the market consolidated to McMegaburgers, Windy's, and Burger Royalty. When I was a kid, you NEVER knew what the burgers would taste like at this joint. Much more adventurous eating.

I hate it when I see yet another industry collapse into the B-school classic of only three brands. It removes all of the interesting flavors.

On the other hand, I suppose that it's inevitable that (2) businesses evolve into (3) businesses. When innovation slows down, the competition leaves only the business with the best (3) styles standing.

But I'm wandering again.

[NaBo]

1:28PM and still craving pizzaburgers.  

[CS Jones]

If 1000 "TS clones" get built during this coming year (and they surely will) which would you rather see...

700 of them built by a major manufacturer with the remainder being built by an elite group of megalomaniacal millionaires.

or

20 DIY "cloners" building and selling from scratch 50 a piece (or even 1000 "cloners" selling 1 each)?

If there were three companies making TS clones, that would be one thing, and I would have no cause for quarrel or discontent. Rather, there are a whole LOT of people making what is likely the same damn pedal, and no mechanism, really, otherthan perhaps a wise and insightful distributor who might say "Well, sounds pretty good to me, but you know, we sell 5 cosmetically different versions of those already".  

Really Mark? What sort of "mechanism" do you propose? I can't even imagine what mechanism could be used to curtail the glut. Testing and certifying potential builders? Requiring kids who purchse their 1st guitar to build a TS so that they'll at least know what it is when they grow up?

Well...heck, I just saw R.G.'s post...
no need to continue.


I think it might just be a "Spring" thing Mark goes through once a year  
http://www.diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=23684&highlight=kerfuffle

[Doug_H]

Yeah, I think it's much ado about nothing...

I started checking out places like musictoyz a few yrs ago and all these "observations" are old news, really. So there are a large number of musicians with some amt of disposable income that have picked up some of the cork-sniffing tendencies of the audiophile crowd. So what? It makes them happy and there is a way for some of the little guys to get into the game and make a name for themselves. I think it works out pretty nice, and a lot of flavors are good, as R.G. mentioned. Like I mentioned before, I don't think a lot of these pedals are clones per se, more likely tweaks and variations on a theme. There are some pretty unique things coming out too, like the Tim for example.

All of this high drama about losing your shirt, going out of business, etc is kind of ridiculous anyway. A lot of the little guys starting out are just doing this as a sideline. Some of them have made very good names for themselves in a short amt of time too. I haven't seen too many people quitting their day jobs and jumping off the cliff to build TS clones. I would think most of them aren't expecting to drive Porsches next year.

As always, the perception does not necessarily agree with the reality. We see another TS derivative and think, "<yawn> oh no, just another TS. Probably some kid in his garage with a can of spray paint who thinks he's going to be the next Fuller..." We know what goes on inside these boxes and we expect more innovative things on this board (which is why I get bored in a hurry with cloning here). The reality is that these people have somehow managed to connect in a way to create some demand for their product, no matter what it is. They're having fun with it, the customers get some more variety. I don't have a problem with that.

Doug

[Mark Hammer]

Well, I guess that I would hope that of the thousand flowers, maybe 50 would be keepers, rather that merely 20.  The "mechanism' I yearn for is something that nudges the outcome in that direction.  Obviously some sort of pedal censorship is way off base.  I just cringe when it seems like the stores are being filled up with a glut of the same thing.  If the distributors said "I'm looking for something a little different" a bit more often I think I'd be happier.

On the other hand, I popped over to the E-H site today, and got a happy feeling when I realized how many new things they have come out with the past two years, and how many of them provide enough controls for musicians to explore unusual territory.  Kudos.  

Maybe I've been spending too much time brooding about the repetitiveness and not enough time noticing the innovation wedged in there between the cracks from time to time.

Perhaps all the boutique nonsense (as opposed to boutique innovation) will disappear if Danelectro includes a Rangemaster clone in their $19 pedal series.  :lol:

[travissk]

[cd]

Mark, I still don't see what the big deal is.  Do you get tied up in knots when you see someone walking down the street in a suit?  Tens of millions of men wear the same suit, done the same way, with even LESS differentiation between them compared to pedal FX.  Fine, there's a heck of a lot of difference between a $2k designer or bespoke piece and a $100 suit you buy at the mall, but in the end, everyone pays the price they can afford and they're happy.  Blue, black, brown, denim, pinstriped, what can you do with a suit that hasn't been done already??  Three lapels?  Turned inside out and doused in paint?  10 buttons?  I've seen all of these extreme examples, and they're still just suits.  

A store will fill up with what sells, if it didn't that store wouldn't be around for very long.  You set your business goals, cater to your market, and work hard.  Enjoy what comes out of that, even if you're not in it for $.

[Regan]

I understand what your saying Mark, but you would know better than me how much other factors besides the actual circuit alter the equation.
An example,
how many different shades of white latex paint can their be? reality, maybe 15 shades total would be different, thing is, there is probably 500 different shades. Other factors make a difference, name, color, size of box, etc.     Bottom line,  the circuit is only part of the whole package,, and what your selling is the package.

And YES, I compared the tubescreamer to white paint!!!
Regan

[zachary vex]

...One of these days, Zach is going to unharness himself from the 1590B canvas, and paint something IMMENSE.  Heck maybe it IS all about encouraging risk-taking...

me?  never.  8^)

[NaBo]

And YES, I compared the tubescreamer to white paint!!!
Regan

At least it's not still the delicious, delicious burgers...  :cry:

[Doug_H]

I just cringe when it seems like the stores are being filled up with a glut of the same thing.  If the distributors said "I'm looking for something a little different" a bit more often I think I'd be happier.

Well, welcome to electric guitar Mark, one of the most conservative "art forms" on the planet... :lol:

Doug

[Mark Hammer]

...One of these days, Zach is going to unharness himself from the 1590B canvas, and paint something IMMENSE.  Heck maybe it IS all about encouraging risk-taking...

me?  never.  8^)

Sail on, brother, sail on.

I seem to recall Picasso once saying something like "I find my freedom within my limitations", in reference to the manner in which a canvas of fixed size/form constrains creative choice.

As for shades of white and 3-piece suits.....well, maye it IS just me.  I'm the sort who looks at a rack of 600 shades of lipstick and mutters "There's only 4 colours there, who the hell are they trying to kid?"   :wink: