Thinking Of Balancing My Guitar...Is It Worth It ?

[Incubus]

I saw a pdf of a phantom powered buffer which gives a balanced output. Not sure of the link, but it's to do with Jensen......transformers I think.

The name of the file itself is "as004.pdf", should anyone want to search.

It consistes of a preamp which would go in the guitar, and some DI arrangement who's output would go into the front of the amp.

Anyway, if I balance my guitar, I would expect to notice the guitar being quieter.

My question is would I notice any other differences in the actual tonal quality of the sound ?

I ask this because years back, a singer in my band had a wireless mic, and we all noticed that the sound was ok, but wasn't "there". He got some advice about it and ended up buying a DI box. From then on, the sound was better, but it wasn't the type of thing that someone who hasn't been a muso for very long wouldn't notice......it was a more "positive" sound.

Just basically wondering about any advantages or disadvantages that trying this with my guitar would yield.

[Bernardduur]

You could put a buffer (as on GG, very nice one!) in your guitar and phantom power it from the first box; I did something similar with my bass and it sounds really good. I don't know if a box at the begin of your pedalboard with a buffer (as I did with my guitar setup) would sound different than one in the guitar but I know that it makes my sound way better. No more loss of high end!

[Incubus]

What I'm talking about is converting the unbalanced output of the guitar, to a balanced output which would require a different type of guitar lead.

It wouldn't be just a sheild and signal type cable, it would have the sheild and two conductors like a microphone cable.

Rather than using a normal mono plug to plug into the guitars socket, it would have either an XLR connector, or a 6.5mm stereo connector which would be wired as tip-ring-sleeve.

[Bernardduur]

I use a stereo jack and plug to get the power from my box to my guitar. It works.

And yes, it is worth it. Even more when you have a lot of TB pedals.

[markusw]

Rather than using a normal mono plug to plug into the guitars socket, it would have either an XLR connector, or a 6.5mm stereo connector which would be wired as tip-ring-sleeve.

I was too thinking about whether there is any benefit in having a balanced guitar (or im my case bass) output. XLR connector would be fine because it also would allow phantom power (no more batteries  ), in my case it's just impossible to install since I don't want to drill a hole that large in my bass   . With a stereo socket (wich is installed for battery power switching in may bass anyway) no phantom power line would be free. So I had to do it w/o phantom power.

Would be really interested too whether it's worth a try.  :?:

Markus

[Incubus]

Maybe some of the people aren't exactly sure what I'm talking about.

Mark has the idea though.

My intention isn't "phantom powering"....it's balancing the guitar's output.

Here's the link to the pdf file at Jensen Transformers.

Maybe this will demonstrate what I'm intending:

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/as/as004.pdf

[cd]

Maybe some of the people aren't exactly sure what I'm talking about.

Mark has the idea though.

My intention isn't "phantom powering"....it's balancing the guitar's output.

Here's the link to the pdf file at Jensen Transformers.

Maybe this will demonstrate what I'm intending:

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/as/as004.pdf

You'll gain the usual benefits when dealing with buffers inside guitars.  Increased high frequency response due to unloading of pickups, ability to drive long cables, etc.  

However unless you know the equipment you're dealing with has balanced inputs, or you have massive noise problems with long cable runs, I really wouldn't bother building one inside the guitar.  Say you want to plug into a regular guitar amp, you're still going to have to make some sort of balance to unbalanced driver.  Better to make an active, unbalanced to balanced cable, which you can plug into your guitar, then use that to run balanced cable to whereever.

[markusw]

Did'nt know that it's possible to have balanced out plus phantom power with a stereo plug (via three lines including gnd). Always thought it needs two opamps for a balanced out. Looks like a clever circuit. If I got it right, V+ is basically run over the two signal lines. Great, so we just need to know whether it makes sense or if it's simply overkill compared to a normal buffered output.  :?:

Markus

EDIT: too late!

[waldo041]

if you want to change a hi-z guitar signal to a low z signal try one of these. you will still use a mono cable but a stereo jack for disconnecting the battery. battery goes in the guitar.

http://www.caesound.com/cgi-bin/cae/info?bufPreamp

i don't know if that necessarily will make it balanced. but may help. my 2cents. peace, waldo

[Incubus]

However unless you know the equipment you're dealing with has balanced inputs, or you have massive noise problems with long cable runs, I really wouldn't bother building one inside the guitar. Say you want to plug into a regular guitar amp, you're still going to have to make some sort of balance to unbalanced driver.

In the diagram at the link, the left hand side of the schematic goes in the guitar.

The right hand side of the schematic is the conversion from balanced to unbalanced.....the output of which goes into a normal guitar amp.

[cd]

if you want to change a hi-z guitar signal to a low z signal try one of these. you will still use a mono cable but a stereo jack for disconnecting the battery. battery goes in the guitar.

http://www.caesound.com/cgi-bin/cae/info?bufPreamp

i don't know if that necessarily will make it balanced. but may help. my 2cents. peace, waldo

AFAIK that's just a simple opamp buffer.  None of Garcia's guitars had a balanced output.

If you want to know the difference between balanced and unbalanced, there's a good explanation here:

http://www.mediacollege.com/audio/balanced/cable-balanced.html

It totally depends on your application, if you already have terrible noise problems where you play, using a balanced system from your guitar can help to a degree.  BUT as usual, if you have noise problems, I would remove all the usual suspects first - start with the SOURCE and make sure your guitar is properly shielded (with no ground loops inside the guitar - see www.guitarnuts.com), use high quality cable, etc. before going crazy.  Like you don't need a shotgun to kill a fly when a rolled up newspaper will do.

Oh yeah, if you use regular single coil pickups, you will ALWAYS have some noise and hum, when not in hum cancelling positions (2+4 on a Strat).

[Incubus]

The thing is, I'm not having terrible noise problems....I get a little noise, but it's not excessive.

I'm just kinda curious as to whether or not there would be any other benefit to balancing the output.

For example, Alembic have balanced basses.....I guess with basses it is more common than with guitars, and that's why I'm toying with the idea of trying it on a guitar.

I was thinking maybe someone here would have already tried it on a guitar, but it seems as though it's pretty rare.

I wanna try it, but I'm just at the moment trying to get as much info as I can before I slam the money on the counter.

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[markusw]

I'm just kinda curious as to whether or not there would be any other benefit to balancing the output.

Me too  

Markus

[cd]

That's the thing.  If you're not actually going to be plugging into a balanced input (i.e. direct into a mixing board, like a lot of bassists) then you're left with low Z out and pickup unloading (or no load on pickups) and noise reduction.  The low Z out and pickup unloading can be easily accomplished with unbalanced (regular guitar) output using a single transistor or opamp.  If you're really determined to stick electronics in your guitar, I'd start with that first, if you encounter noise problems with the unbalanced setup, then maybe it's time to look at an unbalanced setup.

FYI another thing to think about, if you're worried about spending $$, the Jensen transformer alone will cost you around $75.

[Incubus]

It is plugging into a balanced input.

[waldo041]

It is plugging into a balanced input.

like?

http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--BEHGI100

maybe this can be made smaller? it can work on phantom power.

[cd]

It is plugging into a balanced input.

You're plugging direct into a mixing board or PA or some other amplifier that has a balanced input?  I'm not talking about the balanced>unbalanced adapter here - as stated above, if you're ultimately plugging into an unbalanced input, what you gain over an unbalanced driver is noise protection over the balanced run.  Whether that's worth the time and expense, that's up to you.

[seanm]

For example, Alembic have balanced basses.....I guess with basses it is more common than with guitars, and that's why I'm toying with the idea of trying it on a guitar.

Are you sure Alembics can come with a balanced out? I know that some models have stereo out. I have never heard of a production non-synth bass with a balanced out. I have heard of people adding one later though.

[cd]

For example, Alembic have balanced basses.....I guess with basses it is more common than with guitars, and that's why I'm toying with the idea of trying it on a guitar.

Are you sure Alembics can come with a balanced out? I know that some models have stereo out. I have never heard of a production non-synth bass with a balanced out. I have heard of people adding one later though.

Alembic is basically a custom company - there's a few standard models, but they can put whatever you want on any of their instruments (at a price, of course).

[moosapotamus]

Here's an old post at talkbass.com that talks about using a differential input active preamp to resolve 99.99% of all noise and magnetic interference issues... like, ever tried playing next to a neon sign? Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112934&highlight=differential+input

In short, instead of grounding one end of your pickup(s), one end feeds the non-inverting input of an opamp, the other end feeds the inverting input. And, no messing with XLR adapters to plug into your amp because you retain the unbalanced output.

...somthing I've been wanting to try for a while but, well... you know...

~ Charlie