PCB transfer/etching without toner transfer! Carbon+Sharpie?

[analog kid]

Hey everyone, especially all of you PRO /semiPRO PCB'ers!  I was just wondering why noone ever mentions the very basic method of tracing the layout onto copper pcb with Carbon paper and then just using the Etch resistant sharpie to carefully go over the layout on the pcb as a way of etching (SIMPLE!) circuit designs?
For some of us new to the etch process And/OR who just have absolutely NO access to a laser printer to even TRY any of the paper or transparency methods, there doesn't seem to be much of an option if you wanted to just get a layout done on something other than strip pcb or perboard.  
Now I can see that this wouldn't produce the very sharp looking pro results as could be gotten with toner transfer from either paper/tranp. or PNP but it DOES work , correct??
A matter of fact , if this WASN'T a legitimate way of making etched copper pcb's then why do the little Generic pcb kits that the RS sells list instructions that use that method? I just figured there would be some threads or instructions on the best way to do it if this was the ONLY way you had!
Now that said. .  If it does work and I wanted to try carbon tracing a layout onto copper, would it be plausible to use just about any copy of a "sized" layout from any of the known sites to do the carbon transfer with??
Any thoughts on this method. I do understand WHY those who have done it with the better methods wouldn't even bring this one up < but I'd like to try one at least!

[jimbob]

i agree. I wanna learn but i dont have a lazer printer.

[nelson]

I tried to just trace PCB's it is V time consuming and mistakes are easy to make, plus it never turns out *as* good as PnP blue. However there are tutorials out there that tell you how to do it. It is hardly mentioned here because of how inneficient time consuming and the bad results that usually happen. I wouldnt use sharpie, use a paint pen, they stand up stronger to etchant.

[NaBo]

Err, I do all my pcbs like this (about 20 so far... screw the simple part too, I've even done a small clone).  Not 100% sure of your question...  does it work?  Of course.  Best methods?  Well... I can only really offer the same type of advice you'd get anywhere, for the most part... clean it really well of course with a scotch brite pad or something first.  Try not to touch it afterwards.  Make sure your printout is sized correctly and flipped the correct way (no... make double... no... TRIPLE sure.  Believe me, this is a time-consuming process, so you do NOT wanna end up with an unusable board.)  I use a bit of tape to keep the layout in place as i trace it, and scotch brite the residue off afterwards.

I've done three methods of transfer:

1. Colouring on the back of the printed layout with a pencil, then tracing over it with a pen, pushing very hard.

This method can be touchy, because of how the pencil lead gets mashed into the tiny grooves, you can end up with a nice enough transfer but can only see certain parts well from certain angles.  Works, but leaves you with work.

2. Taking the fresh layout directly from my inkjet printer set to 'best' (aka inkiest) print quality, turning it face down, and rubbing down on it with the wrong end of a pen or something.

I've had good results with this method... when I've been quick enough to get a dark transfer.  Keep track of the number of flips involved here... you're flipping the paper when you place it on.

3. Carbon paper taped over the board, layouts taped on top, trace away.

I like this method...  I'm a cheapass university student so I like to scrounge my carbon paper...  I think the last one was from a post office receipt or something   ... gives a nice clean transfer if you're careful not to slip up while tracing it on.

Invariably, you're probably gonna run into some spots where you may have to eyeball it from the printout.  Remember that sockets are really the only places where you have to be pretty precise.  You've got some leeway with resistors caps and diodes.

As for the sharpie stage,  I do that on a desk with a lamp... as I mentioned it can be easier to see the traces on the copper depending on the way the light is hitting it and your viewing angle.  Do yourself a favor and get the set of 4 multicolored two-tipped sharpies.  I use the "ultra fine" tip of a coloured marker for the first coat,  and black for the second.  The "fine" tip is good for ground planing or second coats too.

Keep a couple Q-tips and rubbing alcohol handy to erase any big mistakes, and I find a soldering pick works great to clean up between the traces or revive the little hole in the center of each pad if you went over it.

Make sure both coats of sharpie are DRY before proceeding to the next step.  Don't rush it like I have with a few or you get crappier (probably still useable though...) results.

I etch with ferric chloride in a pyrex cake pan on top of the stove on low heat.

Drill component holes with 1/32" bit, wire ones with 1/16" (it'll make your like easier if using 22+ guage wire).

... I think thats all.  :wink:

[analog kid]

Thanks so much NaBo ! I knew someone had to be using this method to good results.
My questions are that I don't seem to be able to get a sized printout of the layout I'm doing so I eyeballed it onto graph paper using a ballpoint pen and copied it as neat as I could at an appropriate size. I don't know what program on my computer to use to shrink the pcbs from sites like FuzzCentral , diyguitar, tonepad, or GGG? So I'm sure this works the same if carefull just not as neat to trace over since you can't get sharp consistant traces with a ball point as a printer does. Also since you can't SEE through the paper what you're tracing though the carbon to the board , this becomes an issue.  Could you give me some more pointers on this.
I used carbon sheets from sales books as well!  How hard and how much do you have to go over the layout to get a good transfer with carbon , since you cant look if it's all taped down on the copper! It'd be good to know.   I did a couple of lines through a sheet of paper and carbon as a test if it would stick and noticed the carbon goes on a bit ROUGH, looked sort of like what texture a Crayon would leave. ? Does it go on with some thickness and rough texture no matter how well you go over it?
I just wondered if it would be harder to go over with the Sharpie is so.
But it may have had to do with not having the copper real shiny yet!
so any tips on  sizing the layout, transering the carbon and the sharpie work.. I appreciate!

[jimbob]

Nabo- I had to double check the name as it is ussually Mark Hammer that returns posts at such great length.  

thanks for the info!

[sean k]

I've always used this method as well simply because I've always drawn things out and that goes with my layouts.So once I've designed a layout with paper and pencil I just draw out the same thing,in pencil,on the copper surface and then sharpie it in with two coats and use the ammonium persulphate as my etchant.After a few it gets easier to do the sizes of caps and resisters and heres a little thing I do with opamps and transistors.I measure the rectangle for the opamp tabs,two lines of 4,7,8,etc,parallel and then colour in two blocks,one for each line of tabs,then scratch out the dividers.

[toneman]

here's some thoughts....
sharpies, unless they are "fresh"  go on verrrry thin-ly.
Sure, it's dries fast.....
But,   so does fingernail polish!!!   :-)
Get a fine brush for enamel paints.(mayb a couple of sizes).
Mark out where all the holes go, first.
Then, drill them all out.  Yes, do this first.
Then, clean, clean, clean.
I wash first in good degreasing soap, not stuff that leaves a film(like Dawn).
Laundry detergent or even better, TriSodiumPhosphate works great.
TSP *IS* a degreaser.
Make sure U rinse well, then dry with fresh/clean/dry cotton cloth.
(old *clean* socks work great)
Then i wet sand with 320 wet/dry sandpaper.  Yes, it's works great.
Do in several directions.....U want to put toner on ASAP.
Helps to use latex gloves, so *no* finger, or palm prints.
Now, "connect the dots" with fingernail polish.(wear gloves)
Don't have to B as "fast" with the paint as with toner, cause paint sticks really good.
CLean traces after etch with laquer thinner or acetone.(work outside)
One last note....U can use "photo paper" . Any paper with a plastic coating
will not allow the lazer toner to go into the paper fibers.  So, U can flip it over
and iron it on to the clean pcb.   U'll have to do some "trial-&-error" tests to
determine what works best.....Now, i use fingernail polish to "fix" any problems
with the TonerTransfer system i use.
I can *always* take the extra copper OFF.(dremel)
I just can't put the copper ON..........    
wax on; wax off.........
your mileage may vary
stayshaken & etched.
tone

[analog kid]

very interesting input. Yes I wondered about different things that would be impervious to the etch. Anyway was your note on the Photo paper just an "in case you go that route" suggestion. ?? That would be nothing to do with the method of pre drilling and then connecting traces right?(unless you are talking about just for repairing traces.
Anyway I noticed that the Sharpies are really hard to get on thick ESPECIALLY when going over the carbon rub on !!! You almost just have to go through the layout ERASING all the carbon and replacing with fresh Marker just to get it nice and neat and to stick very well ! A real pain, pretty much just using the carbon for an "eyeballing" aid as for where the traces go.!  WHICH is the ONLY drawback I can see for the predrilling method.  That is , not having Anything at all on the board to go by besides the holes being drilled , which could be good enough.
Does it matter what type, color of Polish to use>? And how hard is it to get FINE traces on there with a nail polish brush? On a fairly tight layout it sounds like it'd be tough
Update : My first attempt at etching a colorsound wah board with the carbon /sharpie method went flawless EXCEPT I underestimated the time the etchant would take based on the bottle 20min recom. and others claiming 1hr +,  I double boiled the etch and it went off in less than 10minutes BUT since I was afraid to quit early or to pull the board all the way out to check progress , by the twenty minute mark the acid had JUST started to eat into some of the protected areas!! Bummer
trying agaiin now! Doesn't work I'll go for the pre drill and worst case to the polish route.
Even PHOTO PAPER w/o a Laser Printer or copier WILL NOT Iron on , will it??

[toneman]

hey kid,
the *toner* is the "secret ingreadent" in toner transfer.
it's *not* an ink.  It's a carbon-based *re-meltable plastic*.
"sharpies" are a laquer-based ink/paint.
They *are* hard to work with, but that's how i did my first pcbs.
Fingernail polish is a very cheap alternative.
I get mine *4 free* from friends(female, of course).
Even if U have to buy, it's still pretty cheap.
AFA what FNP will do---U will have to experiment.
FP *can* do fine lines.  Depends on yur brush size & viscosity
It dries very fast, and provides a *thick* coating for the pcb.
Since laquer thinner is used to remove it, U can use it for thining if U need.
Above all-----experiment....experiment....
The pcb can stay in the etchant longer without worring about etch-thru.  
*Any* color will work, of course.  But, just think, U can use different
colors for different traces!!!  Easier to keep track of. !!!!!
Use your "carbon copy" technique to transfer hole positions.
Or, just use a centerpunch with pcb overlay.
Remove the overlay, now U see all the "dots".  Can use a pencil to do preilminary
With this tecnnique, U don't "absolutely" have to drill first.  Doesn't matter.
The FNP will stick over the pencil lines, and U don't have to erase.
If U do erase, pcb is still clean ALA U don't touch withfingers/palms/etc.  
I have *lots* of Reds, cause that's what women give me....
........."This shades jut not me, anymore".
What about U....Is this *your* shade??
staypaintedon
tone

[analog kid]

drilling is gonna be hard with the one I'm doing (1 3/4" x 1 5/8) cause the holes are so small so I can't decide if it's best to drill first AND if not , if there's any benefit of going through the trouble of trying to keep the center hole open (etched). ? surely it's no harder to drill though the full copper pad you'd be left with otherwise.
A BIG , but stupid question (although I have always said there are no stupid questions, the only thing stupid is NOT asking them!)
Is there any necessity to REVERSE The layout when doing a pcb? for instance if I did this on pad per hole I woud start , looking at the layout as if looking THROUGH the board. Well with the layout I'm doing I am just printing the layout AS IS onto paper and carboning it onto what WOULD BE the back, non component side, of the pcb. In my mind this would come out opposite the layout's intended orientation, IF the layout is designed for printing then FLIPPING over and Ironing on, since that would reverse it. ? DOES IT MATTER if all the connections are correct!!?? It gets confusing.
question is, are most layouts oriented as if you would be laying it print side DOWN to transfer , therefore reversing it. OR for laying it print side up with carbon underneath to transfer?? these two methods would orient the layout OPPOSITE.   Again:  DOES it matter?

[analog kid]

update : Something weird happened on my retry , I took it out quicker this time when all surrounding copper was gone on the trace side, it didn't eat through my sharpie traces AS bad  but , I was left with a TON of copper on the top side(double sided board) I couldn't have left it in any longer as the etchant was already cutting into the protected areas!!  The only thing I can think of is , I am dropping the 2sided pcb in to a small bowl , 1/4" or so of E., Marker side DOWN against the bottom of the container.  Should I be placing the component /blank copper side down instead.  Also this tells me that heating , double boiling , the etchant makes it go WAY TOO FAST for the sharpie method!!!! at least with 2-3coats.
the traces are a bit holey but I'm gonna give a try with it anyhow for fun , there's good contin. just a mattter of the pads holding solder!

[toneman]

Hey K,
**definitely** go with *single sided* pcb.
U don't need no stinkin' gnd  plane for these simple circuits.
your etch time will B **much** shorter.
If U can't get single sided, U can "make" SS from DS.
the copper was put on with adheasive & heat & pressure.
Try lifting a corner of the copper & try to peel it back.
Sometimes a heatgun will help soften the adheasive.
Don't burn your fingers!!!!!!  it's easy 2 do....mayb get 2 extra hands, gloves? pliers? etc...
Try to get it off all in one piece...it's not easy...  
OR....try sanding one side off.....but, B vewwy vewwy cawfull U don't
make the fibreglas thinner.... :shock:
there are wabbits watching..........evweware....
either way, goto single sided, & i think your results will improve immensly.
staysingle(sided)
T

[idlefaction]

thanks fro the 'drill after doing the holes and before doing the traces' idea toneman!  I always just sharpie the whole board and etch and then drill.  but i always miss holes and have to drill with the board half populated!

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

The etching we do is pretty similar to wat 'artist' etchers do. One trick they have, is to do artwork on paper, then put the paper face down on the metal, and wipe some acetone across the back of the paper. Now if you had the right ink on the paper, and didn't use too much acetone, you can transfer a scrappy image across - enough to be a guide for going over with the sharpie, or the nail varnish.
NOTE: havn't tried it myself, just mentioning for the experimenters!

[analog kid]

thanks AGAIN, I wondered what could be done about the 2 sided.  Sanding off isn't a good option though. I had to do that with this one since it didn't etch all that side and it was kind of tough to do it w/o really marring up the underlying surface.
-IF I DO go on etching with the 2sided as is though , I didn't get an answer... which side should go face down in the 'bath' ?? trace side or blank side? It does seem to matter
-AND what about the double boiling/heating of the etchant?? Does anyone do it? with small and larger boards and with all methods of transfer??? As I stated... seems to be too much.
-also glad to see others benefiting from the replies on this thread I started!  I knew there had to be DIY'ers on here that did the work this way w/o messing with any sort of toner transfer.

[analog kid]

thanks, I 'd been wondering what could be done about the extra side of copper , might be worth a try especially with the problem I'm having with my etching working so fast on the marker traces(finishes before the other copper side is clean!.. maybe I should stop double boiling it on these very small pcbs??) Anyway I'll try peeling it off on the next one.
EITHER WAY though., Which way is correct to drop the board into the bath? Marker/Toner side against the bottom of the bowl OR face up to be visible looking straight down into the solution??? I put the traces against the bottom of the bowl which if wrong may have been a problem.
Mine came out good enough , continuity and pads hold solder , just not too pretty . I finished it up and the circuit is working pretty good!!
ANOTHER QUESTION:
I had an orientation problem with the layout that was unforseen. Iron on transfer is with the printing of the layout going face down against the pcb so in turn it gets reversed. So it comes out as if  the layout is looking through the board. Well When I did the carbon transfer I layed the printout over the pcb face up SO that I could see the image and rub the traces through the carbon. Well of course this is going to come out OPPOSITE of if the image was Ironed on. Circuit will work either way but IS a problem as far as ease of population ,etc...  What would be a simple way of getting this method to transfer w/ the same orientation? you can't see the layout to rub it THROUGH a regular printout.

[toneman]

Hey K,
top OR bottom......*that* is the question.......
well, if U had no top, the Q would B moot...  
the main thing to remember about etchant, whether it B FeCll3 or the AmPerOx stuff,
it this:    the etchant *needs* to B agitated & heated to make it more "active".
Yes, I see U do that already..........110degF is fine....i use an aquarium heater.
Also, the surface ot the pcb needs to B "refreshed" cause once the etchant
"attaches" to the copper, it doesn't "float away" by itself.  It actually forms a "barrier"
for clean etchant.  With "delicate" lines made from Sharpie, U have to B carefull not 2 scratch the(upsidedown) lines, otherwise they'll B etched away, sail away, sail away.
So, the A 2 the Q  about "which side down"  would have to B:  The 1 "least important" side.   If U use well-dried FingerNailPolish(FNP), it shouldn't matter one side or the other.
Oh, here's another idea....
.........2 make 1sided pcbs form 2sided....i *just* thought of this....
ready....it's crazy.....**completely** coat one side with FNP....a good, fairly thick layer.
B *sure* U have good adheasion to the painted surface......Then....etch away the
"bad" side.... ......now, clean off the good side....wall-la...1sided!!!  ta da!!
Sure U use more etchant, but U could do several 1sided pcbs in advance......!!
Sure save U hassle when U do the "actual" pcb.......
actually, thinkin' somemore,  U could probably just  use a good plastic tape, also!!!
.....hope these ideas help U along the DIY Stompbox Road.
stay(double)etched
tone

[analog kid]

thanks for these ideas! I just had time to check this.
I have been struggling to peel and scrape away the extra side of copper using a good #11 blade and my FINGERS !!Ouch!!, and it does work but adds a good 20-30minutes to my project depending on size.
Anyway It isn't THAT big ofa prob to just let the 2nd copper side etch away right along with the layout , protected side but takes too much chance on your traces beginning to be ate while, before the full copper side is done. Which I watch real closely and just take it out , rinse w/ cold water and go over all my traces (where the've began to be ate into ) And just drop the board back in to  finish up. this is all just too much though.!!
RS doesn't even carry a 1sided PCB!!!
I HAVE been having good luck nonetheless with the carbon traced , hand drawn Sharpie traces PCB making though, I did order a 'real' etch resist felt pen from Mouser I am curious to see if it's just a Sharpie or a bit better for the task?'
Another Question I have though::
 When it comes to the transfer via tracing the printout though carbon to draw the traces on, I have been having some issues with my entire layout coming out BACKWARDS!!! Now typically a pcb MADE for an Iron transfer is going be made to give the Mirror Image or the printout by placing face down and ironing on. So to take the SAME printout , laying it face up and carbon transfering /tracing it onto the board would give the OPPOSITE of the intended orientation of the layout, correct?? So what I've done is trace though the back side of the printout first to give a mirrored version of the layout  that I can Then lay down THAT side face up with carbon between it and the copper to give me the same orientation I'd get by ironing on the layout. Woud this be the best way to get the desired layout.?
I believe this is right although I did this with a 3 knob tonebender layout and STILL got the whole layout to come out bacwards! Maybe that one was made for carbon tracing, huh?