(metal) FX w/ built-in xfrmr: safety-ground or not?

[puretube]

OK, I told you so: ground-/earth-wire ("3rd prong") is a MUST!
http://diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=33844
http://diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=34686

[lovekraft0]

It would be dangerously stupid to do otherwise, IMO - and criminal to expose any third party to such a risk. Can you say, "...depraved indifference..", boys and girls?

[Basstyra]

Well, as I said, I just never saw it on a pedal, and I mean on pedals powered directly from a socket (TC Chorus for example). So I don't really thought about it.

Why on earth serious conpanies don't do this ? I'm sure this would be better, of course, but if the primary is correctly protected...

Of course, if I choose not to do that, it's first because I didn't thought about it, secondly because now it's done and I don't want to change it, and to finish with I don't want to bother myself with a bigger wire and a biger socket, as I allways see sockets without earth  on pedals.

[spudulike]

Low voltage/current psu's have to be "double insulated" to stay legal  without an earth connection ...

[Basstyra]

Low voltage/current psu's have to be "double insulated" to stay legal  without an earth connection ...

What does that mean, double insolated  :?:
And what's "psu" ? Power supply unit maybe ?

Do you think I ould be in illegality if I sold this pedal like this (but don't worry, I will protect the solders) ?

[spudulike]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_insulated

The basic requirement is that no single failure can result in dangerous voltage becoming exposed so that it might cause an electric shock and that this is achieved without relying on an earthed metal casing. This is usually achieved at least in part by having two layers of insulating material surrounding live parts or by using reinforced insulation.

There are also strict requirements relating to the maximum insulation resistance and leakage to any functional earth or signal connections of such appliances.

[Basstyra]

Well, I'll think of this further... :wink:

[puretube]

if somebody "skilled in the art" sells/gives away something dangerous like this to a 3rd party,
he got one foot in jail (in Europe);
if something serious happens to that "3rd party" because of the missing earth - his 2nd foot will be in jail for a while, too...
:shock:

if a hobbyist plays around like this for himself: sh*t happens...

if a hobbyist gives away sh*t like this (sorry, but I have the inner urge to state it this way...),
he probably will get away with a warning during the funeral of the "3rd party" (in case sh*t has happened, indeed...),
because he can defend himself with: "I didn`t know"... or: nobody told me"...


don`t get me wrong, here: I really dig those beautiful pictures of a true old pedal-gem...  
I envy the proud owner of this vintage jewel...
I`m glad he got it working  
I do hope, the pedal will be enjoyed for another 30 years...

BUT: i`m very concerned about the safety issues!

[loscha]

while, yes, living fast, dying young and leaving a good looking corpse may be one of the principals of Rock and Roll lifestyle. I would rather die doing something a bit more romantic than soldering up a power supply in a pedal. I'd rather in involved naked women, Ring Modulators, and a brandy glass full of brown M&Ms or something. (or at least trying to stalk Laurie Anderson, she's pretty rock and roll).

I am currently doing a degree in Electronics Engineering. We are constantly drummed about the nescessity of earthing everything we do with mains electricity, with perfectly good reasons as to why.

We did a full lesson on how and why electricity kills you. How it's the current, not the voltage that will kill you, etc.

There is no Mojo in this issue. Current Kills, Earth or Die.

[Basstyra]

Well, I'm student in electrical engineering too !    But maybe it's becasue i just finished my first year (remains two) that I didn't studied thoses things.

You're right anyway, that's for sure. My question was about the fact I often see appliance without earth.

I will do what's necessary. As I said before, maybe not earth, only insulation,  but if I don't manage to do something good, I'll earth it.

[spudulike]

Looking at the pictures of your enclosure there is ample room for an IEC mini-plug/socket. You can then fuse the supply cable, and fuse the socket as well. Then you can earth the enclosure. Check out the tube amp forums for serious tips on electrical safety.

And buy at least one RCD breaker.

[R.G.]

I'm sorry to be abrupt on this one, but why someone would think of taking a poll on a safety issue baffles me.

I can fully understand asking for help understanding why something is a safety issue, or asking how to do it safely.

Safety is not a voting issue. It's not safe because more people voted for it.

I suspect that if you could take a poll of everyone that had actually lived fast and died young, they would tell you that if they were given the chance to do it over, they'd do it a little differently.

Living fast and dying young only sounds glamourous when you're on the living fast side of it.

Think of it this way: dying young is Mother Nature's way of telling you that you didn't fully understand what you were getting into.

[troubledtom]

i was living in and old house and my TC ELEC. LINE BOOSTER/DRIVER
shocked me VERY bad. i didn't feel the same for months, no joke.
   the pedal was plugged in and i had it in my hands - i touched one of the prongs that you'd plug a mike cable into and bammmmmmm!
   i still don't know what caused it. i still own the device and it works fine :?: that was about 20 yr's ago.
               - tom
ps; whatever the case safety first.

[puretube]

I'm sorry to be abrupt on this one, but why someone would think of taking a poll on a safety issue baffles me.

a subliminal PR-technique to attract the attention of notable readers of this forum like You, and to point others to this important issue, too!
(the idea of a poll actually arose from the fact, that this educative thread was caused by a relatively un-popular post in the OT-lounge, where a thread can be prevented from becoming erased after 1 month, if made up in poll-form...)

I can fully understand asking for help understanding why something is a safety issue, or asking how to do it safely.

I`m not asking for help.
I`m crying out loud for assistance from others in explaining a highly urgent issue to a stubborn young man who`s action might hurt others (besides himself),
and who preferred to push the repeated advice of a single person (me) aside...(while the rest of the forum-visitors seemed to have ignored the threads in question (see 2 links in 1st post of this thread).

... It's not safe because more people voted for it.

absolutely right - but to see the combined opinions of a bunch of more educated people will hopefully help convince the one this thread is dedicated to, that he stands on the wrong side with his opinion.

I suspect that if you could take a poll of everyone that had actually lived fast and died young, they would tell you that if they were given the chance to do it over, they'd do it a little differently.

the (obviously) ironic 3rd polling-option has been put up in the hope,
that an undecided individual hopefully will out himself with a written post
instead of just "voting".

Think of it this way: dying young is Mother Nature's way of telling you that you didn't fully understand what you were getting into.

yes: e.g. because you haven`t listened to more experienced people that had been trying to help you understand...

[Basstyra]

I`m crying out loud for assistance from others in explaining a highly urgent issue to a stubborn young man who`s action might hurt others (besides himself),
and who preferred to push the repeated advice of a single person (me) aside...

Well I'm sorry, but I didn't ignore you !    :wink:

As allready said, it was the fact that pedals do exist without earth, while you presented that as an absolut obligation, that made me doubtful.

[spudulike]

I hadn't seen the threads puretube referred to, just this one and then the references to the threads.

Please accept this - double-insulation is an industry standard and LEGALLY CERTIFIED construction technique that has international standards to adhere to. It does NOT mean "two layers of sticky tape around the transformer". It (IMHO) is not a viable DIY solution - it has to be designed into the product.

Please also accept the incredible risk you are running leaving the FX wired like that. A live performance stage is an electrically dangerous enough place without adding to the risk.

I really hope you run the FX with a wallwart until you know enough about lethal power supplies - like I said the amp forum guys will help you understand. I learned a hard way - save yourself some pain.

[william]

I totally agree on the need for an earth ground.  But I do have a question.  Whats the protocal for using a set-up transformer with a wall wart?  I'm about to build a tube project using the EH transformer but am unsure if the enclosure needs to be grounded after the rectifier?  Or if I should be sure to completely isolate the enclosure from any electricity

[puretube]

use a double-insulated wallwart with the "2 rectangle"-sign on it;

then: enclosure to circuit-ground for shielding as usual;

(obey the neccessary distances/isolation to HV parts inside).

[goosonique]

Ok ... let me get you guys off Bassy's pedal abit with a problem that i am facing  :cry:  ... Got a Korg ECHo those freakin tape ones that hums with the AC ground to the eclosure ... when i remove the ground its clean ...no hum !
I was told it has some kinda filtering problem ... just can't figure it out.  :?
Please.. i just don't want the owner  of this machine to drop dead just becoz i removed the ground .....Really need help  

[puretube]

re-install the safety-ground (earth), and try to find any other solution for getting rid of "hum-loop" or "ground-loop":
e.g.: rotating the mains-plug by 180 degrees,
or disconnecting the shield of the patch-cable on 1 side...