DIY SUSTAINER...hear for yourself

[psw]

Doh... :? ...it's so clear when you quoted it...it's that question again. as it clearly states...oops, thanks PCS... :wink:

Yes...as, I've had to explain over and over...while they are both coils of wire and look similar...a DRIVER is NOT a PICKUP...

The driver really is the key...and unless there's enough demand that I make my own one man sweatshop...the only way to get one is to make it yourself... :wink: ...hence DIY Sustainer....

You might even need to make a few to get it right, but it doesn't take a lot of wire so a small spool will give you enough to practice with till you get it just right...join the sustainer thread at PG for more specific info on building them...

psw

[nero1985]

i still dont understand wat this sustainer is all about, are there any schematics to look at? that would help me understand it better thanks

[psw]

OK...one of the reasons, if not the main reason the sustainer thread is 63 pages long is that I have to go over this again and again...that's not to get cranky over it...I can type...you guys are newer to it...so here's the skinny...

As I said here earlier...

The principle is simple...
bridge pickup->preamp->LM386 amp->phase switch->driver coil

It's getting the formula right that's the hard bit...but that's where you benifit from all my work on this though, isn't it...if I don't share it, what's the point, right... :wink:

Anywhoo...This is how I tend to look at it and explain it...

A speaker is a coil of wire in a magnetic field...voltages from an amplifier causes electromagnet energy to be created by this coil which is either attracted to, or repelled by this magnetic field...this causes the speaker cone to move which moves the air which allows us to hear...that's pretty easy, right...

Now...the driver is simply a coil of wire but instead of moving a speaker cone...it's moving the strings. This movement is "heard" by the pickup which sends a signal to the driver, which moves the strings which is picked up by the pickup which...and round and round it goes...endlessly... This is a feedback loop...

Now a pickup is designed to sense tiny variations in a magnetic field caused by the metal strings movement through it...it uses thousands of turns of very fine wire to produce tiny signals to the amplifier...

The driver is coil has much thicker wire to carry a comparatively huge voltage and has to generate enogh power to physically move the strings...not just sense them...

So that's the difference...

Now, it appears that prior to my work (not withstanding the ebow which is different again as it can be moved along the string and only works on one string at a time) people have approached the "sustainer" from a "schematic mentality". That is they have sought out efficiencies with all kinds of phase correction electronics and such...hmmm

Unfortunately...or fortunately, as it happens, ...I'm no electronics genius (as is pretty apparent)...so, although I explored the ideas, I was encouraged to look at the drivers rather than the circuitry...

Now, "arts & crafts" I can do...so after much experimentation, I found that certain things work better than others and this has lead (amoungst other things) to the design I'm currently hocking...a slim, compact driver coil design...very well potted...

So In hope that helps...

Now...the sustainer thread is at...
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7512&pid=209472&st=930&#entry209472
There's a tutorial showing one guys work and some schematics at....
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=16984
And...the Sustainer Sounds can be found at...
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=17852

I'm working on more sounds featuring the LP through the "sustain box" testing device...so look out for that in the near future...

So...I hope that helps...appreciate feedback on these posts BTW...keeps me interested, you know... :wink:

psw

[guitarmonky55]

well ill just build one then.  as im sure you noticed over at pg(yes im there too )  im working on my first pickup right now, and made some nifty little bobbins.   doesnt sound too intimidating for me, im a loser longhaired highschooler on summer vacation without a car.  ive got tons of time and the patience to boot.

[psw]

Great...just what we need, someone to make bobbins...here's a tip, I used the plastic from folders and I've used cardboard reinforced and laminted with glue...have a good look at the photo's of my bobbins and the pictorial showing how I winded the pickup/driver...same thing...

The bobbings the hardest part, hand winding the coils like 20mins worth tops...!!!...for a novice... :wink:

pete

[Somicide]

psw- from what I understand, the EMGs (mine at least) are low impedence into a preamp that gives high impedence output.  each pickup has it's on internal preamp, and all 3 pickups run from one 9v battery.  That's all I know about em, other than they have a very versatile sound.

PnL,

Jeff

[gak]

it's very interesting, i can't wait to build my own
but i'm still thinking where to find a piece of steel to use as the coil core... any suggestions?

tranks!

[psw]

Sure thing...gak

The last couple of driver's I just cut up a 3mm bar of ordinary (softish)steel I bought at the hardware store...however any kind of steel you have hanging about the place would work. I just used a hacksaw with the metal secured in a vice to roughly the right size, then a grinder holding it in pliers (have some water handy as it gets hot and dont try and hold it in your fingers if you're grinding)...putting it in a vice and using a grinding stone in a dremel or drill will work just as well...watch oout for sparks...

You could also laminate the core out of thinner sheets of thin metal (galvanised iron used in plasterboarding, for instance) but it would need to be epoxied together somehow...

Basically...a little dumpster diving should find something if you don't want a couple of metres of the stuff left over when you're done.... :wink:

You need to round the ends...the windings will also need to be protected from shorting on the steel with electrictrians tape and some coating (nail varnish?) on the exposed blade to prevent rusting...

Anyway, check out the tutorial and the pictorial of my driver over at PG there's a little more to it (potting, etc) and the bobbin design...the thing is still developing so any ideas you have on building the thing will be appreciated...some of this you'll just need to find your own way...but we really are talking "arts & crafts" here...the imagination is the hard part...

Ideally, and I'll eventually be doing this...the whole driver will be molded in epoxy...it will look like an EMG or something...and is the ultimate solution..... :wink:

Speaking of EMG's...Somicide...I was really asking about how strong the magnetic field is and whether it's strong enough to simply place the driver on top...It's debateable, you could try it...basically Tim (over at PG) recently reported that he felt the MagF was about half normal strength...is this enough?...won't know till somebody has a go...

Sorry that I'm having to answer questions on the fly...still developing so many aspects of the thing...there isn't a difinitive way, yet...I really, really need some others to go all the way and make this thing to confirm my results, too. It's all very well that I can make 'em (a few other's have done too...) but being the only one with a fully functioning "guitar", as such...means I'm a little on my own...somebody, please, catch up.... :wink:

How about a little friendly competition...can a DIYstomp member build one and successfully install it, before a PG member (other than me) does...  :twisted:

psw

[Somicide]

the magnetic field of EMGs is muuuuch weaker than a passive pickup;  you can put the strings much closer to the pickups without them being pulled on too much.

EDIT:
I figure, should I be able to get the materials, I cn fit one between my single coil and my neck humbucker.  what are the dimensions of yours, and could I make it smaller, not the width of it but... whatever dimension it would be to make it fit between my pickups.  About how tall is one of these?  5mm you said earlier, no?

PnL,

Jeff

[psw]

See this is the thing, isn't it...every guitar's different...

So...It sounds like you've got 3 pickups 2xHB & a SC in the mid?

The driver really does seem to work better as close to the neck as possible...I was able to the drive the strings of my LP holding it above the 'inside' of the neck pickup (bridge side...but you're getting a bit close to the bridge 'source' pickup...this might be a problem...

It's down to a bit of experimenting, if you're up to it...I really can't predict the results till a few people have tried it...

Now...As for the size of things...you're likely to have to make a few to get something right...

My driver is 12mm wide and 3.5mm deep...but then you have to add a magnet...I tried some tiny Neodyminium batteries (2mm) thick (see pic) and it did work...Now, if you were to put the magnets inside the core (instead of the steel)...say a row of 11-12...the whole thing might only be 3-4mm thick...

The size also depends on your skill and ingenuity...I used very thin bobbin material...reinforced with cardboard during the winding process so that it wouldn't bend...there's some pics of that too on the thread... It's not hard to do...but then I've spent the last year or so winding coils of various types and working with very small things...it's possible that I find it easier than others will...

On the "tutorial", G Mike made his using cut up CD cases...but, your looking a 4mm of dead material right there...that's one of the reasons I've used thin stuff...once the potted coil is dry, it'll hold it's own shape...I dare say if you used epoxy, you could remove the bobbin altogether once it's dry...it's all up to your "arts & crafts" ability really.... :wink:

First off...do some measurements and plan out what you need to fit in there, what will look acceptable...then make it to that size...and good luck...

psw

Oh...and switching "might be a problem with all those PUp's...or maybe not...again, it's try it to see...won't know if you don't have a go...!!!!

One other thing...it might be possible to add a lightly magnetised driver to the top of the neck EMG...the only proviso would be that Neodyminium mags might demagnetise it and it might increase the pickups power (It'll be lower so not necessarily bad) and effect the tone...in a bad way?

[Somicide]

see, those neodymiums are what scare me about putting them on top of my emgs, I don't wanna demagnetize any of em, not for how much they cost .

I can always build it into a passive guitar, just don't have one right this second, but I will soon.  thanks psw for the dimensions, I should be able to do this provided i get supplies!

PnL,

Jeff

[psw]

see, those neodymiums are what scare me about putting them on top of my emgs, I don't wanna demagnetize any of em, not for how much they cost .

I understand...but neodyminium's are just one kind of magnet...

How much extra (if any) is required is still open till someone has a go...

You can get pretty small ceramic magnets (perhaps even in a craft shop...for making fridge magnets...not the flex strips though) that would provide the energy and pose no risk at all to the pickup...

Of course, no risk does not imply good tone...how such a strategy (lowering the pickup and increasing it's magnetic field) would effect the tone is an open question...

There is some subjective...(ie my ears)...evidence from my strat that the mod actually improved the tone of my strat pickup...very subtley. Slightly more body or something and more even response with bent strings due to the higher mass blade design. It certainly wasn't an adverse effect on the tone and it really is (if it's there at all) very subtle! The point is that it certainly didn't have any adverse effects on this particular pickup...

Other pickups...who knows...I'm doing some work with a 2xHB LP guitar at the moment...it's very hard to tell without a specially made prototype and I don't have any worthwhile info on the effects yet on lowering and extendeing the poles of a conventional Humbucker on it's tone...

The only thing I can say is that the driver works in this configuration (on top of one of the HB's coils) does work...but the installed version is far superior than the test setup so it's very hard at the moment to really say why.

From a player's perspective...a naturally sustaining guitar like a LP has less of a need for a "Sustainer". Perhaps it needs an anti-sustainer!!!! It's far more rewarding to have a twangy guitar that can switch to infinite sustain than a sustaining guitar that switches to even more sustain...IMHO...

Anyway...sent a few little sound bytes to be posted so they'll be another taster soon...psw

[psw]

a few more...SUSTAINER SOUNDS...posted

here's the sustainer sounds link
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=17852&pid=209223&st=0&#entry209223

here's the sustainer thread link
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7512&st=930&p=210026&#entry210026

enjoy... :lol:

psw

[sir_modulus]

Hey there...I've been following both your pg threads and this one...and first off, would like to thank you! I know a lot of people who would just go out and keep all this for themselves, but it's really nice to see how much you're helping everybody! THANKS!!!

Now...on to my question:

This is what I've got...A squier Jagmaster body that I've just filled to make top routed. I want to put two humbuckers in it, and if possible a sustainer. I basically was thinking that by routing it like a jem (JEM) I could have two humbuckers and have the single coil slot filled with a sustainer.

Now...the thing is, I've read that the sustainer only works well if you have it placed near the neck, and use the bridge pickup...would it work with my setup?

Also, for building a driver...I do have a leftover tone-like-mud stock squier humbucker from my guitar, and wanted to know If I could just rewind that to make it into a sustainer driver? (by using a spacer to make it so that the coil is only about 4 mm thick) This would mean my guitar would have two humbuckers for signals, and one more humbucker like pickup, that just had the thin driver coil (at 4ohms).

Thanks for any help!

Cheers,

Nish

[DDD]

psw,
WELL DONE!!!!!

You've successfully solved the MAIN MAGNETIC SUSTAINER PROBLEM - installation it to the instruments without any mods of the guitar. Great!

Please note: your idea of the FLAT driver is actually valuable idea. I venture to strongly recommend you to apply for the patent - it can give you quite big $$$$.

Good luck!

[psw]

Thanks...

You've successfully solved the MAIN MAGNETIC SUSTAINER PROBLEM - installation it to the instruments without any mods of the guitar. Great!

Well, not quite...it's not as good as an install. For the reasons, see the post on the main "Sustiner" thread above the latest Sounds post (link above)

Please note: your idea of the FLAT driver is actually valuable idea. I venture to strongly recommend you to apply for the patent - it can give you quite big $$$$.

I'm proud of it...it's not only practical but works better in that shape... :wink:

However at $35,000 plus legal fees to defend it, a US patent is out of the question. I certainly wouldn't mind if someone would like to "buy" the idea...a pickup maker for instance...but there's been not a nibble! (still no one's told me to "cease and desist" and I'm sure by now that they're aware of my work!)

There is some reasoning to my free disclosure though. By making the idea "open source" so to speak I can publically lay "prior claim" to the innovation. I still appear to be at the forefront of the concept (till you guy's catch up) so it would be difficult for others to patent it without my involvement.

Of course I don't have exclusivity, but then I don't have any $$$$. The worst case really is that a whole bunch of DIY'ers will have free reign with the concept.

BTW...I haven't disclosed everything...I've still got some tricks up my sleeve, but not the skill or $$ to enact them. Perhaps there will one day be an official PSW sustainer available for those who don't wish to DIY!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK....sir_modulus
Making a "Sustainer Guitar" is a good way to go...sounds like a good choice of instrument for it too...and you're clearly not adverse to a few mods to it.... :wink:

Now...the thing is, I've read that the sustainer only works well if you have it placed near the neck, and use the bridge pickup...would it work with my setup?

The sustainer doesn't work well in the mid position for a few reasons, the main one being the proximity of the driver to the source pickup (the bridge). So, the mid pickup slot is not a good choice of location, sorry.

I could develop something that would work really well in your guitar...but then it wouldn't be DIY then would it?...it'd be PSW did it himself!!! I'm happy to make suggestions and there may come a time when I actually build them for people, however....

I would suggest a separate "discreate" driver right up as close to the neck as possible. I'd make it a little taller (4-5mm deep coil vs. my 3mm ones). This would allow it to have less width (probably about 8mm with practice) and could be disguised in some kind of spiffy casing (I'd form a silver aluminium "can" filled from behind with epoxy). I'd use magnets within the core to save on extra depth. (oh...maybe that's a product...doh...shhh...secret, secret.....)

This driver could sit very close to the neck followed by the neck pickup. I wouldn't scrap a HB to make it...better to make a proper purpose built "blade" design. I know the idea of making a bobbin seems to put people off, but if you've got the balls to fill a squire and top rout pickups, you could do this, eh!

So, for your project, I'd suggest that you put together the "sustainer(r)(c)" before commiting yourself to the routing and test it out...then you'll know what you're dealing with...

Anyway...thanks for the feedback, it all helps...

psw

[sir_modulus]

Lol...thanks for the compliment...I filled it with polyfill(think drywall/cement...) too...so now it's 12lbs... :lol:

Now...I think I can deal with it right next to the neck..now the thing is...I'm a bit confused about the driver.

The way I see it..it's like a sandwich of steel!

---------     plastic or whatever
+++++     Steel core
---------     plastic again

Now...I'm confused about where the magents go/how many etc. I'm also confused about the connection between the top layer and the core. Is the core just sitting there? and have a solid layer of plastic? is there just a whole in the plastic, and the core shows through (for the "blade"), or do I have to make a whole in the plastic, and grind the core so the blade is higher than the rest of the core, and the top of the blade and the plastic are the same level...

sorry if that's confusing....thanks for all your help!!

Cheers,

Nish

[Dizzy_One]

psw, i'd like to say 'well done' to you too !

DDD just draw my attention to this topic, and I think your
idea of flat driver is a pretty good.

Actually, i've built my sustainer (called Dizzy Feedback Machine)
about a year ago. It's a magnetic sustainer, and driver placed
in the MIDDLE position of plain strat.  Moverover, it work
with any combination of pickups - neck single, bridge humbacker,
neck+bridge.

Current draw is a about a 5 ma in standy (and about
a 30-50 ma during play).

Then I started my project, there was virtually no info nowhere.
So it take about two years to make a real good device.

[psw]

sorry if that's confusing....

It's confusing...sorry...

The driver is just like a pickup...a bit of steel in the middle with a coil wrapped around it. I don't think it would matter much if the steel sticks out through a hole...mine does. I would make the bobbin thin though. The bobbin (the plastic bit) is only there to hold the wire on really...it has no other functional purpose...but the "driver" has to be as close to the strings as possible...a thick bobbin on top of the steel is not in keeping with this...

pete

[sir_modulus]

you've got it dead on! thanks! So now...if I made this driver...I just make small cap for it like a tele neck pickup? what should this cap be made of? Will that interfere with the dirver?

Cheers,

Nish