Laser Printer/Photo Copier for Press N' Peel Blue

[formerMember1]

Hi,
already searched and read up on the following: :wink:

I have been reading up on using Blue Press N' Peel for making pc boards on Tonepad.  Will any laser printer do?  I guess for a beginner, to make a pc board for a Axis Face and Vox wah from fuzzcentral, should be pretty easy ,right?  Is it really that hard to drill the holes in the board?  From reading geofx and etc.. i assume you can't use a hand drill, right?
What is the success rate at making a good looking, quality, working pc board for a beginner?  Is one sheet of blue press n peel from small bear enough to make a wah and fuzzface?

correct me if i am wrong:
all i need to make a pc board (in no particular order) using press n peel is:
1.laser printer and paper
2.sheet of press n peel blue
3.single sided coppper board
4.tray and etchant
5.sharpie/ touchup pen
6.drill
7.layout of circuit(i assume the layouts fuzzcentral provides is enough)
8.iron, flat wooden board, ironing board
9.cleanser to remove oxidation
10.hacksaw etc...
11.sandpaper  what grit?
12.anything else besides time?


thanks  guys :wink:

PS:is it worth it to go out and buy a laser printer to make your own boards?

i understand the methods using laser printer, but what about a photo coppier?
can't i go to office max and use theirs for like 25cents or something?
Is a laser printer better than photo copier?
Posting any links on how to use a photocopier to make pc boards would be great.  i can't find any.

[markr04]

Copy/print places will likely turn down a print job involving a piece of paper taped to another.

I've been meaning to list this in the sale/trade forum:
I have an HP 4L laser printer I'm willing to sell for a few bucks (somewhere around $40 US or best offer). I used it for PCB printing until I bought a new color laser printer a couple weeks ago. It's not much for graphics, but it handles PCBs and my school research papers (text) with ease. It's working, it has toner (dunno how much though), works with WinXP, and a USB attachment is already installed. It's a perfect dedicated PCB printer.

PM me if interested.

[mojotron]

Hi,
correct me if i am wrong:
all i need to make a pc board (in no particular order) using press n peel is:

1.laser printer and paper - markr04 has a good deal for ya.. perfect for this stuff - you want an old printer for this stuff
2.sheet of press n peel blue - Well, you might want to get like a 20 pack  and some #60 drill bits from http://www.techniks.com/ if you are interested in going further with this - if you like jumpin in on the deep end of the pool  
3.single sided coppper board - 1 Oz boards etch faster
4.tray and etchant - Radio Shack or Frys carries this stuff
5.sharpie/ touchup pen - yep
6.drill - I would suggest a dremel tool with a cheap drill press - I'm not sure how others make boards without this, but I think this is pretty important for drilling boards.
7.layout of circuit(i assume the layouts fuzzcentral provides is enough)
8.iron, flat wooden board, ironing board - old cheapo/thrift shop one works
9.cleanser to remove oxidation - Well, really you just need 100% acetone solution from WalMart or a drug store (to clean prior to PNP application) and some 220 grit wet/dry sand paper to remove toner after etching
10.hacksaw etc... - dremel works great for this as well
11.sandpaper  what grit? some 220 grit wet/dry sand paper is the best - always wet sand on copper
12.anything else besides time? Patience, patience, and then some. Remember the first few times you do any of this stuff will be the toughest, but once you build a few pedals you'll get to the point where you can take on just about any project from around here...

PS:is it worth it to go out and buy a laser printer to make your own boards?

I think so, but I want to make my own designs... If you want to build your own pedals from a pile of parts without the logistics of buying boards.. yes.

i understand the methods using laser printer, but what about a photo coppier? can't i go to office max and use theirs for like 25cents or something?

photo copiers do work, but it can be frustrating when things are not just right. Like was mentioned, photo copy places are pretty reluctent to do PNP stuff.

Is a laser printer better than photo copier?

In every way, especially when you have a printer with micro-fine fuser - that stuff is magic!

Check out http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm

I have a few techniques that are related to the advice in the above link using PNP. You will see mention of the picture paper method, and that works, but PNP is so much better.

[markr04]

I use laquer thinner to remove toner after etching. ~$5 or so for a big jug at Home Depot (but could be bought almost anywhere). Apply to paper towel, wipes right off.

[mojotron]

I use laquer thinner to remove toner after etching. ~$5 or so for a big jug at Home Depot (but could be bought almost anywhere). Apply to paper towel, wipes right off.

I only use 220 grit sand paper to do this because I wanted less chemicals to deal with. Either method works well.

[formerMember1]

I have an HP 4L laser printer I'm willing to sell for a few bucks (somewhere around $40 US or best offer).

i might pass on this offer but don't know yet.  I have been meaning to buy a digital camera, since i am still researching about them, i don't know what laser printer i will end up buying for the camera.

Thanks for the help mojotron and markr04

I will probably buy the mod wah board off GGG, since he sent me an email of how to adapt this board to my wah.  As far as the output buffer for the wah, ill build that on perfboard.   As far as the axis face, GGG sent me and email about the 69 fuzz board, but that still looks a little confusing for me,(ya know, jumper that stuff and what not)

MOJOTRON:  Didn't you build the axis face on a 69 fuzz board?  I thouht i spoke to ya once about this.

heres what GGG told me:
Yes the Fuzz Face 69 or "Boutique Fuzz" board will work, with only one or
two small things.  The jumper at the bottom of the board would be replaced
by a 100uF cap for power filter and the red cap would have to be solder
tacked on to R4.  That's it, otherwise it's about the same.  Use the NPN
layout as a guide of course.  There's no place on the board for the diode
for reverse polarity protection, but that's not a needed part, if you feel
strongly about that, you could also solder tack that accross where the
jumper is as well as the 100uF cap.  Couple of other things, R5 would be
jumpered and the contour control would be jumpered.

Is that pretty easy and i am just making it hard in my mind?
Is that what you did mojotron?

thanks, sorry if i am slightly off the topic, i figured since your repsonding to this thread  already, i might as well post it here :wink:

oh yeah one other thing, here is the link for the wah mod board if anyone cares:

http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/diagrams/wah_mod_lo_no_switches.gif

[mojotron]

...MOJOTRON:  Didn't you build the axis face on a 69 fuzz board?  I thouht i spoke to ya once about this.

I actually built this from a modded layout that was based on JD's (from GGG) Boutique Fuzz (a.k.a. '69/'70) layout. I don't remember how I modded this - I did it a while ago, but I think I just make the traces a little thicker so that I could use regular paper to make the PCB (that was in my pre-PNP days) iron transfer.

heres what GGG told me:
Yes the Fuzz Face 69 or "Boutique Fuzz" board will work, with only one or
two small things.  The jumper at the bottom of the board would be replaced
by a 100uF cap for power filter and the red cap would have to be solder
tacked on to R4.  That's it, otherwise it's about the same.  Use the NPN
layout as a guide of course.  There's no place on the board for the diode
for reverse polarity protection, but that's not a needed part, if you feel
strongly about that, you could also solder tack that accross where the
jumper is as well as the 100uF cap.  Couple of other things, R5 would be
jumpered and the contour control would be jumpered.

Is that pretty easy and i am just making it hard in my mind?
Is that what you did mojotron?

It is that easy - that is pretty much what I did. In fact I have a rather long bridge across a few components to get the .047uF cap in there - but everything works and is actually pretty stable/rugged. I can post a picture later - a picture tells the whole story really. Actually, this is a good project to do if you want to get your feet wet on building stuff from the ground up. The most important thing is to be patient with the lessons you will learn - buy some solder wick and just plan on the fact that you will redo the whole thing once you get it done. Although I've gotten a lot of projects "right" the first time, the 2nd or 3rd builds that I have done of a project ussually are the ones that end up on the pedal board most of the time. Sometimes I just re-used the same board and 1/2 of the components and desoldered/scraped the rest. The only important thing is that you end up with an effect that is way better than anything you could buy. Any FF build is pretty good going, the only tricky part is getting the trimmer pot set - and you will likely not even get a sound until you adjust that when your at the point to start testing.

Buying boards is a good way to get started too - you avoid the any frustration associated with learning to make PCBs, and you get to see what a high quality board looks like - I hear JD's are really good.

[Mark Hammer]

The entire process relies on laser toner, since that is what adheres the pattern to the bare copper.  You can get that toner on using press and peel, or you can use glossy photo paper.  You can get the toner on the sheet via a photocopier or a laser printer.

Commercial photocopy places are understandably worried about plastic sheets melting in their machines.  You can safely assure any photocopy clerk unfamiliar with P-n-P that it is IDENTICAL to the acetate sheets used for overhead transparencies, the only difference being that the blue emulsion is blue, rather than translucent/transparent like it is on overhead transparencies.  If their copier can take transparency blanks, it can take these without any problem whatsoever.  I wish the folks at techniks would have a nice big disclaimer page on their website explaining this so that folks can print it out, bring it to Kinko's or wherever, and just get on with it.

As for your list of items, personally, I would recommend fine or extra fine steel wool over sandpaper since it buffs up nicer.  Sharpie pens are okay but I find the tips a little too fat for my needs.  I use Staedtler Lumocolor pens instead.  They come in a variety of colors and have nice fine tips.  Just make sure you get the waterproof type.

You CAN use hand-drills, but the problem is that drill bits of the gauge you need to make appropriate holes do not stand up well to the wobbly qualities of handdrills.  Ideally, a drill press is better.  You CAN often get budget benchtop drill-presses for under $80.  Given the number of holes you are likely to be making, this will speed up your production time immensely.  Given the amount of arm strain likely to result from that amount of hand-drilling, you can either pay the money for the drillpress or spendit on physiotherapy - your choice.

You asked "What else?".  If you intend to work with ferric chloride, a dedicated pair of pants or junk shirt or work apron is likely called for.  Ferric chloride poses very stubborn stains to clothing when it splashes and those stains transfer readily to other clothes in the washing machine.  My advice is to keep your etching clothes separate from all others until you're an expert.

A pair of plastic tweezers is also helpful for removing the board from the etchant without getting your hands stained.  The etchant won't kill you but like I said, the stains are stubborn, and if you need to have clean hands for a meeting, family meal, church service, or whatever, yu'll want to keep your paws well away from the etchant.

I reently started drilling small holes in the corners of boards and sticking half toothpicks in them to situate the board in the etchant bath like an oil-drilling platform in the ocean.  The board is pointed copper side down, and the toothpicks keep it aloft.  I use either a heat gun, hair dryer, or desk lamp to warm up the board from the top.  A warm etchant bath is great for speeding up etching time, but a warm board comes in a close second place.

Finally, not mentioned by anyone was a big box of baking soda (NOT baking powder) for deactivating used or spilt etchant.    You don't want to flush it down the drain since it will still be strong enough to etch your plumbing long after it has little impact on your boards.  Bad for the wee beasties at the river end of the sewage system too.  Baking soda will conmvert the etchant chemically into an ugly, but harmless, substance that looks like rusty foam.

[formerMember1]

this is slightly off of topic but isn't  

I know nothing about laser printers except about what i read online.  In my local paper a guy is selling a HP  PCL5 laser printer for 30$. I can't find much about this printer online. Is that good enough for pc boards?  Will that printer work with a new computer?

any links about cheap laser printers  for circuit boards would be great.  It seems to me the cheapest new one is $200.00.  I don't got that kinda money.  If anybody could help i would be grateful, am pretty new to computers too.

thanks and i apologize if i should have posted elsewhere.
:wink:

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

formerMember1, the main expense with a laser printer is the cartridge, if you buy a secondhand one wihtout a cartridge, then you might find you have to pay $60 or more!!! for a cartridge.
And even if you buy a new printer at a bargain price, make sure it comes witha 'full' cartridge (yeah, printer mfgrs are pricks).
I was given a HP 6L by a business guy because the printer feed was screwed (tried to feed multiple sheets) a known fault with this unit, some people have found these abandoned with full cartriges.

[formerMember1]

thanks, man that is good to know,  

[Mark Hammer]

Just about ANY laser printer will be more than acceptable.  The limitation is not the resolution of the printer, but rather the resolution of the P-n-P or photo paper.  You can certainly print out sharp enough images on the laser, but when you go to lift up the cooled transfer sheet (whether paper or acetate), the manner in which the emulsion pulls off of the sheet is not exactly the highest resolution you can imagine.  Even if you print it out with razor sharp clean lines, when you go to pull it off and inspect the pattern onthe board with a magnifying glass, you will see the transferred lines are not nearly as sharp.

All in all, though, it's not a problem.  The key thing is to select your transfer method in consideration of the PCB pattern properties.  Personally, I find glossy photo paper has decent enough resolution for at least 60% of the projects posted around.  Should there be more than two parallel traces running between the two sides of an IC, though, I tend to opt for P-n-P because it has somewhat better resolution.  Once it gts to the point of traces running between adjacent IC pins themselves, and some of those rather complicated digital boards, you may be better off going photoresist.  IN general, the method selected is a function of how thin the traces need to be and how much space is allowable between them.  The more crammed and cramped things are, the greater the need for highr resolution methods like photo-resist.  Conversely, when the traces and pads are nice and thick, with loads of space between them, even the crappiest glossy photo paper is probably more than good enough.

In none of these cases is a "classic" 600dpi laser printer a hindrance to decent etching.  As for more modern printers, well, I don't know of too many folks who have a need to print out 16 sheets of P-n-P per minute.

[formerMember1]

cool man, that helped.

i am gonna try and find a used one with some toner left in it.  Is there any way to look at it and know if the toner is almost empty?  I think the printer in my area a guy is selling is 6-8 years old.  He wants thirty bucks.  But does that mean it wont work with my windows XP?  Will it have a usb attachment for easy hookup?   I have to find a time when i could look at it.

[Mark Hammer]

You don't have to buy new toner cartridges.  Plenty of places will "recharge" your toner cartridge for much less than the price of a new one.  Obviously, it would be cheaper to buy a 2nd hand printer with another 1000 pages left on the existing cartridge, but most regular users like ourselves can make do with a single toner cartridge for years.  

I bought an older HP Laserjet II a while back because my wife's lab had accidentally ordered a couple of toner cartridges for one and couldn't return them for some reason.  They were available for the taking.  I figured that since the cartridges were the most expensive part, buying a printer with no forseeable consummable cost was a bargain.  Well, it's some 18 months later and I'm still working my way through the original partially-used cartridge it came with.  The two fresh ones are sitting in the boxes, still wrapped and sealed.  Many toner cartridges will last for thousands of pages.

And, maybe you knew this already, but when the printer indicates toner is low, you can always take the cartridge out, shake it around and dislodge the toner that is clinging to the sides of the cartridge via static.  That will almost always extend the usable life of the cartridge.

[mojotron]

While we're on the subject:
There is another thing about PNP that is nice too - as compared to picture paper - that is that after you transfer the image; all you have to do is run some water over it, pull the pnp off, wash it with soap - then your etching. With picture paper you end up having to scrub the paper off or the traces after cooling the ironed board. I found the scrubbing process was where a lot of transfers got damaged.

Also, I'm kind of picky about what brand of toner I use. I have found that the $60 HP micro fine toner does the best job. The difference in cost, spread out over the life of the cartridge is minimal.

Everyone would find that either using picture paper or the generic $40 toner cartridge will work fine for making boards. But, it's really the combination of the things that work best (for your technique) that makes for a reliable process - one weak step in the process degrades the quality of the job in too many cases.

[Mark Hammer]

after you transfer the image; all you have to do is run some water over it, pull the pnp off, wash it with soap - then your etching. With picture paper you end up having to scrub the paper off or the traces after cooling the ironed board. I found the scrubbing process was where a lot of transfers got damaged.

First time I've ever come across mention of this.  I make sure that my copper surface is gleaming before applying the paper or PnP, and find there is never anything "left behind" to clean off.  Perhaps it is the type of photo paper you use.  The basic principle is that there is a fine-grained layer of emulsion to which the toner adheres. When heat is applied, the toner binds to the copper more strongly than the emulsion binds to the paper backing.  When it cools, the emulsion layer sticking to the toner tears away from the paper because the toner is pulling it along.  

In theory, at least, the shinier the photo-paper, the finer-grained the emulsion layer is, and the more likely it is to "break" cleanly from the paper backing with nice clean edges.  Should the image printed on the paper have insufficient contrast (i.e., some toner is deposited on the blank parts, and the "black" parts are really just mottled dark gray), then there is a very good chance that some noise will be left on the copper board.  But a good crisp image in TRUE black and white and nice shiny photo paper can work extremely well.

Some printer drivers permit one to adjust the darkness of the image, or provide for "text" and "photo-image" settings (the latter of which involves a slower, more toner-intensive print).  If you have some means at your disposal for increasing the amount of toner laid down on the PnP or photo paper, try using it.  Sometimes this can even involves printing the same image on the same sheet twice (try that out with regular paper first to verify the alignment).  The overall goal is to have enough toner laid down that the portion of the image that "wants" to adhere to the copper will do so with only a minimal amount/time of heating.  Much like with etching itself, the longer the process lasts (whether sitting in etchant or applying heat to the sheet), the lower the contrast between the parts you want etched and the parts you don't want etched.

Finally, there is cool and there is cool.  During the winter, I cool off my just-ironed boards by pressing them against the window.  Alternatively, I have a couple of thick pieces of aluminum heatsink and I sandwich the board between those.  You really want it to be cool to the touch before removing the transfer sheet, not just cool enough that you don't go "ouch".

[formerMember1]

sounds good to me.  How is that clear epoxy FR-4 board that smallbear sells?  Anything else i should add to my order like picks or anything?  Anything useful to aid in making pc boards i could get from mouser or smallbear? I am sending out my order today or monday.

i already have access to drill presses, anykind of saws, tools

thanks :wink:


PS:if making pc boards gets a little too complicated for me or i can't get good results, i would gladly send money to mark hammer or mojotron, or others if they could make me two boards from fuzzcentral.  I will pay materials, shipping, and for your time(obviously) and anything else.

but, first i am going to have a go at it. :wink:

[formerMember1]

edit* sorry, it posted twice :oops:

[Mark Hammer]

but, first i am going to have a go at it. :wink:

Absolutely.  I might point out that doing them yourself means you have the option to modify existing layouts to your needs, whether usign graphics software, or by means of creative post-transfer use of a waterproof pen.

I've found that most layouts posted are superb, but occasionally you find one where the pads for a cap anticipate spacing for a component you can't get where you live, or perhaps you have a ton of caps of a different size you'd like to use up.  Sometimes you want to add a toggle to select between two alternate values and you want some pads to accomplish that.  And so on.  Doing them yourself buys you flexibility, and that's what DIY is all about.

[formerMember1]

AWESOME MAN!!   i never even thought about that.  Aron should create a section on the forum where, mojotron, mark hammer, fretwire, and (others i am forgetting) and just let them ramble on and post all of their tips and tricks and what nots. For a one stop shop of info.
I understand there is already something like this but not quite. :wink:

cool