Laser Printer/Photo Copier for Press N' Peel Blue

[mojotron]

after you transfer the image; all you have to do is run some water over it, pull the pnp off, wash it with soap - then your etching. With picture paper you end up having to scrub the paper off or the traces after cooling the ironed board. I found the scrubbing process was where a lot of transfers got damaged.

First time I've ever come across mention of this.  I make sure that my copper surface is gleaming before applying the paper or PnP, and find there is never anything "left behind" to clean off.  ....

Hey Mark.. I did have a lot of success with using the "Staples Picture Paper" method (http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm), but it took about 5+ minutes to get the paper off of the fuser - which is stuck on to the copper - requires soaking...- so doing 20 or so was a pain - and resulted in some damaged traces. Then, I switched to PNP a while back and really liked the fact that you can just whip out a bunch of high quality boards really quickly.

PNP is great because the emulsion separates cleanly from the acitate backing. However, I tried a lot of different picture paper brands and found that the emulsion separation is nowhere near as good as PNP.

Now, it sounds like you have used picture paper with the same method that you would with PNP - instead of soaking the picture paper off. I have not tried that, however I buy PNP direct so the cost is relitively the same for PNP vs. picture paper - so, I never went back to picture paper. Except to print pictures of course...

[Mark Hammer]

PNP is great because the emulsion separates cleanly from the acitate backing. However, I tried a lot of different picture paper brands and found that the emulsion separation is nowhere near as good as PNP.

Now, it sounds like you have used picture paper with the same method that you would with PNP - instead of soaking the picture paper off. I have not tried that, however I buy PNP direct so the cost is relitively the same for PNP vs. picture paper - so, I never went back to picture paper. Except to print pictures of course...

There is picture paper and picture paper.  The key thing is to use the glossiest stuff you can find.  Some stuff that is pitched as picture paper is essentially semi-gloss stuff that provides a tight enough surface that inkjet spray won't bleed outwards.  The glossy stuff has an emulsion layer that is quite fine-grained and separates nicely from the paper backing.  Like I say, unless the image has been transfered with lots of noise (i.e., speckles in the "blank" regions), I generally find it easy to just pull off the paper and have a nice neat pattern transferred.  The paper method is a little rough around the edges of pads and traces (if you look with a magnifying glass) compared to PnP, but soaking or an additional cleaning has never been necessary.  It may also be the case that the blue emulsion of PnP doesn't require as thick a layer of toner on it to yank it off the acetate, in which case I can easily see PnP outperforming photo paper if no special steps are taken to assure a nice thick toner coat.

I use sheets of photo paper that I can pick up for under 25 cents each at the photocopy desk at Staples/Office Depot.  Inkjet paper will work, but laser paper is generally cheaper, and unless you have some dynamite connections, chances are you are paying more than 25 cents a sheet.  Again, not to diss PnP at all. It *does* provide higher resolution and for some jobs is head and shoulders above paper.

[formerMember1]

hey guys,

I didn't do it yet but just wondering so when i do,  After the board is etched and cleaned with water and drilled.  I always read that you now have to remove the toner from a top the copper traces to have something to solder too.  Can't you just remove the toner where you are soldering parts and not on the whole trace/s.  It makes sense to do that.  I never see boards with all the copper traces showing.  Wont they oxidise and lose contact?

*Didn't want to waste a thread on this:
*GEO FX doesn't offer boards or anything anymore does he?  I could never get the pages to load.*

thanks :wink:

[Mark Hammer]

Personally, I prefer to buff the etched /drilled board to a shine with steel wool and dab some liquid flux on the traces, then tin the whole board.  It's not a requirement but I find it makes for an easier time soldering components, and it also provides a wee bit of insurance for those times when I have a hairline crack in a trace - you can compensate by reflowing the solder over it.

You probably don't want to leave the resist pattern on the board, for a bunch of reasons.  Once again, when it comes to fine-tuning or hotrodding a circuit, being able to easily tack on parallel components on the copper side is a real blessing.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Can't you just remove the toner where you are soldering parts and not on the whole trace/s.

GREAT IDEA! you are right, why clean where you aren't going to solder?
except, that it is probably easier  to scrub the whole board. But, you are right! Plus it would be some protection against shorts.

I can remember when there were "mechanical erasers" mostly used by draughtsmen, it's a hand held drill type thing with a chunk of cylindrical abrasive rubber eraser in the chuck. I guess you could improvise one from a dremel type hand drill. Get the buzz on!

[mojotron]

...I use sheets of photo paper that I can pick up for under 25 cents each at the photocopy desk at Staples/Office Depot....

Wow - that is a good price - about 1/4th the cost if getting PNP direct.

Also, thanks for clearifying how you used the paper - clearly I was working too hard when I was using paper. Some day I'll have to give picture paper a shot again.

[formerMember1]

hey anybody mind taking ten seconds to read this quick link about this laser printer,  i could get it 69.99 after mail in rebates in my area.

it says 600x600 dpi,  the next model up is a Hp and is 129$ but has 120dpi, is that way better for pc board making?

i am only going to use it for boards, the toner cartridge it comes with will last me forever since i already have a hp ink jet for other stuff,  It said the supplied toner will last 1000 sheets, and a new one will last 3,000 sheets.  But you don't print up a whole sheet anyway when making boards, so...

Do i have to set the laser printer on maximum toner to get good results?

thanks for the help guys, :wink:


http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetailSpecification.do?oid=92938&originURLEncoded=http%3a%2f%2fwww.circuitcity.com%2frpsm%2fcatOid%2f-12971%2fN%2f20012961%2b20012967%2b20012971%2b40001426%2flink%2fref%2frpem%2fccd%2fcategorylist.do&com.broadvision.session.new=Yes&BV_UseBVCookie=No[url]

[markr04]

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1607869,00.asp?kc=PCRSS02129TX1K0000530

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

>it says 600x600 dpi,  the next model up is a Hp and is 129$ but has >120dpi, is that way better for pc board making?

The more dots the better, but for us I doub it matters.

> It said the supplied toner will last 1000 sheets, and a new one will last >3,000 sheets.  But you don't print up a whole sheet anyway when >making boards, so...

Printer mfgrs count a 'sheet' as a sheet of text, not solid toner. But you already knew they were a$$holes, right?

>Do i have to set the laser printer on maximum toner to get good results?

It will help, definitely.

[formerMember1]

thanks, so i guess i should get that printer, or will i later on be mad i didn't get one with a little more quality.(only using it for boards)
Like will it provide better etching results if there is more toner on the page,
or is that just a waste of toner?

anybody mind listing the model of their laser printer, and opinion?

did you get it for board making or already had it?

thanks :wink:

[markr04]

I'm guessing that you're under the impression that higher DPI = more toner. That's not the case. DPI is sorta like an accuracy rating... how fine the little dots are that make up the picture. This is exaggerated, but you could think of it as the difference between drawing an intricate picture with a fine-point pen or a fat-tip marker.

Getting more toner on the paper is more like "build up" of toner... adding a second coat of paint to something... making it higher, not wider.

I think almost any laser printer will do the job of PCB printing. A choice between 600dpi and 1200dpi will not make a difference in this application.

[Mark Hammer]

I'm guessing that you're under the impression that higher DPI = more toner. That's not the case. DPI is sorta like an accuracy rating... how fine the little dots are that make up the picture. This is exaggerated, but you could think of it as the difference between drawing an intricate picture with a fine-point pen or a fat-tip marker.

Getting more toner on the paper is more like "build up" of toner... adding a second coat of paint to something... making it higher, not wider.

I think almost any laser printer will do the job of PCB printing. A choice between 600dpi and 1200dpi will not make a difference in this application.

You're absolutely correct.  Indeed, I'm curious as to what resolution many of the pdf files with layouts are created under.  I doubt many of the ones I've seen would be more than 600 or even 300 sometimes.  If you were printing off layouts for photo-etching, or producing documents with 6pt italics that needed to be legible, then 1200dpi would be an asset, but for making the kind of boards we do here 300dpi is more than sufficient.

It doesn't get mentioned all that often, but some folks (and I count myself here) are not regular printer users.  A couple of pages here and there, but that's it, with long stretches of non-use in between.  Laser printers hold up to disuse MUCH better than inkjet.  If your use is as limited as mine, you'll appreciate having a laser printer.  It will pay for itself in terms of avoiding dried and clogged ink cartiridges in no time at all.

[formerMember1]

cool thanks guys, that really cleared it up,

yeah i am only buying the printer for boards, the way i figure, $69.99, plus what ever in PNP and board stock and etc ...
is cheap compared to buying a couple boards premade  and such,  I would much rather get the expeirnece out of it ,and also be able to customize the board sometimes,  then if there is a really really complicated board, i could get it off GGG or tonepad

thanks for your help :wink:

[markr04]

You're absolutely correct.  Indeed, I'm curious as to what resolution many of the pdf files with layouts are created under.

They're vector drawings (Tonepad's pdf files are anyway), so there is no resolution to speak of. Here's a quick read on it:
http://www.prepressure.com/image/bitmapvector2.htm

[markr04]

Do you have a Dremel yet, formerMember1? And don't forget some 1/32" (AKA #66 or .033) bits. I've never seen smaller than 1/16" at hardware stores in my area, so you might want to look online or at a hobby shop or something. They're not expensive... I recently bought a dozen for $4.99.

[formerMember1]

markr04:

Today i just bought the laser printer, and i picked up a $100 drill press from Lowes,  yeah i goota find those small bits, they didn't have them at home depot, etc...

So the drill bit size for drilling pc boards is 1/32" or .033?  Is that the standard everyone uses?  I always use 1/4 watt metal film resistors, so they have pretty small leads.

i was looking at unibits,(for pedal) I saw one that i liked for $16.00 and change, it was from 1/8 to 1/2".  It stepped up in 1/32 inch increments.

Only problem was, it was carbide and not titanium.  Wouldn't titanium be better, and smoother?  Carbide seems good though.  What about the one small bear sells?(i would rather give him the business) plus i got stuff i am gonna order very soon off hm too.

thanks man :wink:

[formerMember1]

thanks, mojotron, frostwave,mark hammer, markr04. and others i forgot about,

I ironed and etched my Axis Face board today, it came out perfect,  Now i have to drill the pad holes, drill for mounting, ad remove toner,

Is it better to drill before removing toner? Or remove toner then drill pad holes?

I think we talked about using 0000 steel wool to remove the toner?  (i don't have acetone, My mother has nail polish remover, but it says "non-acetone")

thanks for all the help 

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

It's quite possible that the 'non-acetone' varnish remover will work. A lot of things will remove toner. A wire brush would be my weapon of choice.

[KORGULL]

Here's a really nice method I've found for removing the toner/resist: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=36165.0

[mojotron]

Here's a really nice method I've found for removing the toner/resist: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=36165.0

Wow - that's cool.

I've been drilling first, then removing the toner with 220 grit sand paper and a sanding block - but that removes a bit of the copper layer and that is not really optimal.