FUZZ FACE versus................fuzz face??

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello--
    A bunch of people [myself included] really like the sound of germanium Fuzz Faces and try to get the "feel" of the germs by using lowgain silicons.  Now, how about the tonal quality of  the regular [properly biased] FF silicon circuit??   Sometimes the extra high gain and increased treble response works better  for certain applications [such as playing LOUD through a cranked Marshall or Vox-type amp where some extra clarity helps the overall sound.]    Things can REALLY change when you are playing with a real band and have to poke through the mix of a bunch of other musicians playing loudly on a stage.  What's everybody's experience with some of the different FF circuits???
Brian.

[RandomRedLetters]

Hoenstly when playing in a band there are a few things to consider. Like in audio mixing, theres only so much real estate that sound can take up (ie the frequencies that you hear) For instance if the vocals are around the same frequency as rhythm guitar, both will be mixed and muddy to hear until you eq them to seperate. I dont think your problem is really what pedal to use, but make a conscious effort to see where you and your bassist and other guitarist, vocalist etc are sitting as far as eq. Drums you cant control unless they are miced and mixed for a live show, but even then they cover a good amount of the frequency spectrum anyways.

Try sound checking in your rehersal space by adjusting eq as well as levels. You may sacrifice that killer tone you're playing with in your bedroom (usually mids and treble are too high, because we like the thick lead sound of mids. Our ears are made to hear them because they are tailored to hear the mids of speech), but its worth it t have good seperation in a band situation.

Rhythm guitar main frequencies should sit just above vocals, and guitar guitar just above rhythm. Vocals usually sit around 1-4kHz, so if you have a graphic eq on your rig you know what to shoot for.

[RandomRedLetters]

"guitar guitar just above rhythm." Its suppose to be lead guitar, typo there.

Also if you have backing vocals they sit lower in the mix usually more around  1Khz than lead vocals, more around 2-3Khz

[Fret Wire]

Now we're talking Brian!  You're one of the first to actually define the parameters of using low gain si to mimick Ge. I keep seeing people suggesting the cap mods (to make the si's sound ge) indescriminately regardless of what trannys the person is using. The type of mods Phillip Bryant has for the Axis Face are great for a Ge sound with low gain si's. They are not universal FF mods.

I'm a traditional fuzz type, I like the woofy bottom end. I'll only lower the input so far, then it's time to break out another pedal more suited to the task. I don't mod mine to sound the same as my other od's.

I have plenty of Ge's, so I don't try to make my Si's sound like Ge's. I want my Si's to sound like a good Si, and my Ge's to sound like a good Ge. They each have their own special character. I'm resisting building every fuzz like you and Marty, but I stay with the Dallas Si & Ge, TB MKII, Dallas Ge w/mMayer mods, and Axis Fuzz. That's enough...for now.

For Si, it's about proper bias, and a pf cap across Q1 & Q2 until it doesnt oscillate and the harsh treble is mellowed just  a pinch, to a nice sharp biting sound.

When everybody went to using low gain Si's, I tried them too, but not for the Ge sound. I figured they would be easier to hit the Si sound with. Btw, my recipie was PN2369a's for Q1, and 2N4400's for Q2. I don't see anyone else using the 4400's, only the 4401's. I got 100 Fairchild 2N4400's, and they all ran between 110 and 140 hfe. And they sound good too.

After building a few, and playing them quite a bit, I'm leaning back to my original Si recipie. BC108's, or similar Si's from around 180-250 hfe. The low gain Si's are ok for emulating Ge's or a mild Si sound, but I still prefer the Ge sound or the full Si sound.

[BD13UK]

I've found in my experience that the Ge FF's clean up rather better than the Si types, having said that I've also noticed over the years that the Ge types differ so much from pedal to pedal and that the Si type seem to be more consistant but much more trebly when the guitar volume is rolled back, the Si types obviously have more gain although I really liked the Pedalworx McFuzz which was a hybrid of the two, it just seems impossible to get the DO IT ALL FUZZ in one box.

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello--
     Random-- Do you have any experience / preference with the germanium or silicon circuits in a live band situation??
 Fret-- A couple of years ago I got hung up  on making silicon sound like germs [started with the Rangemaster circuit and then quickly spread to FF and Tonebenders] and finally I found myself using about 3 fuzzes that all sounded pretty similar [the singer is a bit snippy so she will make statements like "W.T.F.  are you wasting time changing all yer pedals around when they all sound the same??].  It became clear that alot of people [me included] were spending lots of time and energy  modding everything to death in order to make it sound like something else!   I've been playing guitar pro since the 60's and I'm real simple about guitars and amps [ when I want a Marshall sound, I USE a Marshall.....]  so it was obvious that I needed to view the pedals in the same light.  A high gain silicon FF can sound great but it will not sound like a germ [and, that's the good news!]
Hey, I just got two old BC108c  that have hfe close to 600 [on my meter] .  What do yours measure out at??
Have you tried putting a 2N2369 in Q1 and something with much higher gain for Q2?
Brian.

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello BD--
    Yeah, the lower gain silicons tend to clean up better with the guitar volume control.
I really like the hybrid circuits, too.  Aron's "Hornet" and Gagan's "Easy Face" were two circuits that I built around 3 years ago. I have trouble finding good quiet germs for those, though......pair up a germ with a si and it can get a little "hissy".
Brian.
WWW.OTTOSGUITARS.COM

[Fret Wire]

Hey, I just got two old BC108c that have hfe close to 600 [on my meter] . What do yours measure out at??
Have you tried putting a 2N2369 in Q1 and something with much higher gain for Q2?

I've got a bunch that run from about 180-250hfe. They'll last me awhile. Off hand I'm not sure if they are 108 a's, b's, or c's. The last ones I got were around 350, haven't tried them yet. I also have some metal can TI 2N3053's (225-250hfe) that sound real good. I like the 108's better than the 400-600hfe BC 109's. I haven't done much mix-matching gain wise, I usually keep Q1 and Q2 about 50hfe apart or less. Works for me.

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello Fret--
   I've had a bunch of 2N3053s for quite awhile  and always had a little trouble with them being noisey [hissy] in FF circuits.  How do get yours to work??  [I'd like to find a use for 'em.]
Brian.
WWW.OTTOSGUITARS.COM

[Fret Wire]

What brand were they? Mine are TI's and are pretty quiet.

[spudulike]

Try a FF with NPN Ge OC140's - I stopped playing with PNP after I got some. Well worth a try.  

[nicko]

I find germanium transistor being smoother and muddier so sounding nice when recording or just bedroom playing but definitively silicon transistors cut better in a band situation in my opinion.  It's just clearer and more agressive.
But than again for slow blues band I'd choose germanium. Depending what you play really.

[brett]

My name is Brett.  I'm a fuzzfaceaholic.  It is 15 days since I tried to make a Si FF sound like a Ge FF.   :wink:  

Brian said

Yeah, the lower gain silicons tend to clean up better with the guitar volume control.

That's what the theory would suggest, too.  Clean-up seems related to (the inverse of) input impedence, which is directly related to gain.

One thing that Si FFs have never emulated is the asymetry in Ge clipping.  Their intrinsically lower base voltage in a FF (Ge=0.3V, Si=0.7V) means that Q1 will clip quite easily on the signal's "lower" side.  RG Keen comments on this in the "Technology of the FF".

For output transistors in a FF Si, I use output devices, usually with a bit higher hFE than the old magic "130".  Lots work well.  The BD139 is an NPN device with hFE between 120 and 180.  They also come with suffixes (/10 /16 ?? I think?) that denote classes of hFE within this range, which is helpful.

Excellent discussion.  

cheers

[Fret Wire]

If you stick to the magic "70-130" hfe range, you miss a lot of good combo's, a few below 70hfe, and a lot above 130. Sometimes, especially with Ge's, you have to bend the rules to suit the gain of the latest batch. With a little work, the "bent rules" become "new rules".

Fuzz addicts like us go through periods of intense experimentation, followed by being extremely anal about our "newest combination", than back to experimentation when the latest batch of trannys ends up with different gain than the last, and so on, and so on.

I definately have a Si and Ge sound in my head, and work most tranny combinations to hit either sound. When my Ge's run out, and I have no more desire to hunt, test, and throw out 75%, I'll have the Ge sounding low gain Si's to fall back on, thanks to Brett and a few others.

[RandomRedLetters]

I havent made any Ge circuits. I have found that for chords Si comes thru nicely, but in my opinion simple distortion circuits lack the ability to really cut through on single note lines so I just use my Marshall 50w Tube head for it.

My distortion pedals are more novelty effects for studio use, but I'll use them sometimes live. Like above, I mostly rely on my overdriven marshall.

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello--
   Fret- They are Centralab 2N3053.   Maybe I should try to get a different brand.
 Something you said about being anal about things got me thinking about how narrow the focus has been lately about getting the "Germ Sound" out of silicon.  Just think of all the great "Silicon Sound"  circuits that are being ignored 'cuz we're all trying to  recreate something familiar using different parts!   One of the most refreshing builds for me lately was the Kay Fuzz.  This thing is SO different then all the FF and TB circuits that it put some fun back into my life!   It goes to every band practise!
I find that I do most of my experimentation and "mods" when I'm not playing live.....almost as if it's a substitute for what I REALLY should be doing.  
  Hey Brett--If you feel a "Silicon Slip" coming on you can always get in touch with me and I'll help you get to a meeting!
I really appreciate all the work you've done with the trannys.......I think every one of my pedals sounds better due to the knowledge you've passed on.  Hhhmmmm..... BD 139 .....
   I have a few friends that will not use germ pedals in a band that has more then 3 instruments in it....they always switch to silicon for the "cut" that they have.  [Since I'm basically in a trio with a singer I get to hog the whole frequency range myself and when doing studio work anything goes!]
 Spud--Where can I get some OC140 's  ??   I'd REALLY like to try some.

   Yeah, this is a great discussion....hope it keeps going for awhile!
Brian.

[bigjonny]

I haven't built this, but was just reading about the Sili-Face II @ ROG the other day.  The basic premise being: using common transistors to achieve a good fuzz sound,in a band setting...

[Fret Wire]

My 3053's are old NOS metal can TO-18 TI's. Tomorrow, I'll check the date code on them. They do sound great to me. I'll post on it tomorrow. Maybe I'll have to send a sample.

[BD13UK]

Hi Brian Wenz !!!!!! I used to get a bit pissed that Hendrix could get clean/slight drive/more drive etc up to all out fuzz ALL from the guitar volume, I saw Him live on two occasions and He did it both times, I've now kinda put it down to the fact that He had 3 Marshall stacks running at high levels and volume wasn't a problem for Him in most venues unlike small gigs that I usually do where even using a 50 watt amp it's difficult to crank it up and be able to utilise the power along with the FF to obtain such a myriad of sounds, at present I'm using a Laney LC 50 1x12 combo and I find that the second channel is somehow better voiced than the clean channel, certainly for use with a Fuzz as the clean channel sounds very brittle at all settings using a FF type effect,  I used to find that the AC30 was excellent for using along with RM and FF type pedals but I dont fancy lugging one of them around anymore as approaching 59 I have vivid memories of how heavy they actually are and those ghastly RUBBER carry handles proved totally useless until the amp was cool. Sigh !!!

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello BD--
  Yeah, AC30's seem to be getting heavier and heavier lately.  Is your Laney a class A circuit with 4 - EL84 power tubes?  [I would think it would sound real good with FF , RM, and TB pedals.]   I don't know what kind of speaker the Laney has in it, but I've had GREAT luck with the Celestion anniversery 30-watt [G12-H ??] .  It's not the Vintage 30 but a reissue of the original 30-watt greenback......breaks up very nicely.
Brian.