Commmercial Printed Circuit Boards...any experiences??

[psw]

:?:
I did a bit of a search but couldn't quite find what I was after...so forgive me if it's been raised before...

What experiences have people had in getting printed circuit boards produced for them (say multiples of a simple small design) and what's the best way to go about this...

It seems for small production runs for the inexperienced and un-equiped that by the time you've paid for equipment and learned the skills you could have produced a small run of boards to take a prototype to a more fully realized project to share...or am I wrong?

In particular...I find the thought of having to hand drill all those tiny holes acurrately a formidable prospect, let alone the etching and the cost of materials... Likewise, cutting a little board to size from a larger sheet!!

May as well stick to perfboard it would seem...or am I deceiving myself here???

Anyway...if people have experiences of costs and procedures, practical or company recomendations, or anything regarding having short runs of small circuits done...from schematic to board (or even population!)...I'd be really keen to hear about it...   ....p

[Peter Snowberg]

I've had many thousands of individual boards produced by a bunch of board houses (mostly orders of 100 to 500 boards) and I'll probably never etch another board myself. It just isn't worth it to me for what I get.

Pro boards come with plated through, perfect, little tiny holes, VERY small geometry, and the prospect of ordering X number of them.

There is a lot of "you get what you pay for" out there. Use a board house with a reputation and never go by price alone. You'll be VERY sorry if you do.

To get started in the world of CAD and pro quality boards, I really like http://www.expresspcb.com/ . I've used their mini-board and production services, and they're great.... quick and consistent.

The trick with them for production is to get a quantity of 50 boards. You can always tile smaller designs and cut them yourself, but it's probably not worth it except when using their 3 board  mini-board special. That gives 3 boards shipped to California for $63.

I really hate drilling holes and lifted pads are such a pain. Plated throughs are the only way to fly for me.

I started designing with surface mount parts because I hate drilling so much. Now surface mount assembly is a snap with solder coated boards. Just add some flux.... place the part.... and reflow the pads with the iron. Simple as pie.

[moosapotamus]

I've had great results with expresspcb, too. The miniboard deal is for a double sided PCB, which is also great if you have any jumpers in your layout. I've also used the 2nd copper layer to add lettering and stuff since their miniboard service does not include a silkscreen layer. Putting multiple small layouts into one board and cutting them up as needed is a piece of cake compared to making your own from scratch.

~ Charlie

[Rochey]

olimex olimex olimex...

wonderful wonderful wonderful

[psw]

Great replys guys...

we may see something for my sustainer yet...maybe surface mount is the way to go too...they are just so small though.... :shock:

anyway cheers...I'd probably want to go for more quantity than three boards for $US63...that's $20 a board.

If you got a lot of little boardes (inch square) on a bigger one...is this the way to go, and how do you cut them?

cheers...p

[Coriolis]

Well you could lay the boards out so you could cut them with a hacksaw, but I guess it wouldn't take much clumsiness to ruin a bunch of SMD-sized Fuzz Face boards with a hacksaw, if one isn't careful!  :wink:

Peter, could you tell us what size of boards you had made, and what expresspcb charged you for something like 50 boards? Or am I pushing it?

[Rochey]

PSW --

check out olimex (google for them). they will fit as many cards (as many diffferent designs as you like) into a eurocard (that's 100mm x 160mm). I typically design my boards with Eagle cad, and then send them the layout file (brd).

Last time i wanted some boards made, I managed to get a fuzz face, seamoon funk machine and big muff boards all done and routed (cut out) for about $40.

there were almost 12 boards in total once they'd been cut out.

let me know if you have any questions.

cheers
R

[bwanasonic]

Well you could lay the boards out so you could cut them with a hacksaw

Nay hacksaw, tinsnips! Of course clumsiness would still ruin a board, but good tinsnips cut *like butter* with expressPCB boards, and minimize the toxic dust factor. You can count on getting from 2-6 average stompbox circuits on the 3.8" X 2.5" *miniboard* size. The cost including shipping here in MA is $51 for 3 double-sided miniboards. If you fit 4-5 up on a board, that's between $3.40 and $4.25 per pedal.  Another pricing example: A 2.15" X 1.3" circuit in quantities of 50 is between $247.61 for no silkscreen/solder mask, and $286.48 with silskscreen/ solder mask ($4.95 - $5.73 @ board, with no cutting req'd). Note that the pricing has actually gone down for this service from what it was a year or so ago. The software has improved as well, with new features like the easy creation of power/ground planes. You can always count on me to to be an expressPCB cheerleader in these threads! Also note that a board pricing function is built into the (free) expressPCB software, so it is easy to calculate your cost. They don't pull any weird hidden cost bullsh*t.

Kerry M

[doug deeper]

i know we all "hate them"
but has anyone used futurlec for boards?

[Peter Snowberg]

Peter, could you tell us what size of boards you had made, and what expresspcb charged you for something like 50 boards? Or am I pushing it?

I would be happy to.

The bulk of the PCB experience I have is from the early 90s using a Mac CAD program called Douglas CAD/CAM. Douglas tried to tie everybody into using them to get your films made by building the output files just for them. You could also print the boards to a postscript printer, which I used to get film output from a service bureau that normally serviced litho printers. You used to get your film, and then take that to a board house. It's so much easier now to just email a file. Yikes.

In the past few years I've done only limited run and one-off type projects where runs of 500 are out of the question. That makes ExpressPCB a good option especially since they give you free CAD software, but they force you to use them for the board house.

Hmmm... that sounds familiar.

With ExpressPCB you pay a premium if you're getting less than 50 boards produced. They have a price break that kicks in there so 50 boards or more is the key.

I did a modular embedded control system a few years ago that was based on the mini-boards footprint. That was great for getting individual prototypes using mini-boards.  Some of the boards didn't need any prototyping and I just crossed my fingers (and checked eeything several times). The 12 different production boards were tiled 3x4 with 0.2" spaces in between and run with the full production service to get 10 boards. I cut the individual boards out with a table saw and then sanded the edges clean using a giant belt sander. The belt was about a foot wide and there was a work surface to set the boards on that was perpendicular to the belt for a perfect 90 degree edge. It took only seconds to clean up each edge and the result looked routed. Don't even think of using a belt sander on a board without a respirator! :shock:

I've done things between those sizes too but the range has been 2.5 x 3.8 to 10.6 x 11.8 with solder masks and without.

As Kerry just mentioned, the software tells you the cost up front.

I'm an ExpressPCB cheerleader too.

Please note that as boards get larger and quantity goes up, the cost of the "standard" service without the solder mask becomes MUCH more expensive then the "Production" service WITH a solder mask. At 8 square inches and quantity 100, the cost just about DOUBLES to NOT have a solder mask and silkscreen legend. (sic) :shock:

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

i know we all "hate them"
but has anyone used futurlec for boards?

Plenty of people have had success (go to Google groups & search futurlec PCB), but AFAIK Futurlec don't have a plant themselves, they subcontract & so, as usual, YMMV.
If cheapness counts, and you cn use Eagle, then it's Olimex by all accounts (Bulgaria).
I use Melbourne Printed Circuit (Melbourne Australia) not cheap at all, but it is nice to be able to talk to them in English.

[Gladmarr]

I've used Futurlec for two boards now.  One came out without a hitch.  The second there were some miscommunications as far as quantities, but they corrected the issue in my favor.  

My new big gripe is with Sparkfun.  They had a deal where it was $2.50 per square inch for boards, then they doubled their price.  I ordered after they doubled the price and now it's been over a month and no boards!!!  Futurlec never took more than three weeks, and they're in Australia (with production in Turkmanistan or something).  Sparkfun is in Colorado!  What's the deal?!?

I have another order in with them and this will be the first time I'm getting soldermask an silkscreen on my boards.  Hopefully they'll be nice.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Sparkfun doesn't get the boards done in Colorado AFAIK. And, from their site:
"Please do not use our service if your project has a deadline. We cannot expedite orders. We cannot guarantee delivery dates. If you need time-sensitive service, please use Advanced Circuits or another fab house."
I suspect those boards are travelling from the exotic orient via the Old Silk Road...

[Gladmarr]

Oh, I'm aware of that.  I'm just surprised, for how much people here bash Futurlec, that this other place is slower with the PCB fabrication.