Hammertone paint still soft after...THREE WEEKS?!

[skiraly017]

I thought that the paint should be fully dry after three weeks, but after assembling my pedal I noticed that the washers had sunk into the paint. I did not bake the finish because when I tried that on one box, the finish seemed to change from hammered to wrinkle. The box was primed and dried in stable conditions (no excessive humidity, etc.). Has anyone else had this happen? Is there some magical paint mojo step I overlooked? Thanks for the help.

[petemoore]

I was reading once 'commercially available paints  dont' dry' or words to that result.
 I have noticed that thick coats of spray paint or even brush paints like rustoleum don't dry to 'rigidity'.
 Speculation that the Mfr.s are limited in the amount of catalyst or drying agents they can mix in.
 Auto or other pro paints cure harder.
 I had a rustoleum box with a 'drip' method of application, one rather large teardrop feature 'in' copper [shaped thick solid core copper wire] would move after a day or so of being upright or flat....this is after months of 'curing' or I could just as well say 'partially curing'.
 If paint dried to be 'absolutely' hard, when whatever it painted 'moved' [expansion/contraction] because of temperature or humidity, the paint would sheer off.

[Melanhead]

I use Rustoleum all the time and usually let it dry for about a week just to be safe ... I've ruined a few

[Mark Hammer]

I would imagine that the quality of finish is a function of the qualitative aspects of the baking, not just the baking alone.  The wrinkling occurs when heat is applied in a manner that forces the outside of the paint to cure considerably faster than what lies underneath - much like pulling on a drawstring bunches things up.  Of course, that is also more likely to occur if the paint is too thick, since that would permit the outside surface and the underneath to "experience" different environments.

What you want to do is stop the paint equivalent of a skin forming on top of the pudding.  the problem arises when too much curing is happening too quickly in too specific a region.  It seems to me that the solution lies partly in using the thinnest possible coats you can, and partly in using a more consistent and moderate means of baking.  Not all toaster ovens accommodate this, I realize, but you probably want to be able to use temperatures under 200 degees fahrenheit and have some means of diffusing the heat.  That will take a little longer, and there may be more stink involved, but the results may be desirable.

I'm wondering if it might not be possible to cut a hole in the oven chassis and install a little blower fan to make it more like a convection oven, or maybe fabricate some sort of front-door retrofit, with one fan blowing and one drawing the warm air out.

[sir_modulus]

Remeber one other key thing about rust-o-leum, there are many different finishes you can get with it. If you spray heavy normal coats, you get that standard finshes, If you spray heavy coats from close up, you can get a cool shimmering metallic finish, and if you spray from farther away than normal you can get a light textured finish. When you ask them about curing time it's only for the standard application and they quote about 2 weeks for full air cure. If you're in a rush try the last method I mentioned as the paint generally cures in about 2 days or less. A little fan blowing room temp air or slightly heated air really decreases the cure time too.

Cheers,

Nish

[sir_modulus]

Remeber one other key thing about rust-o-leum, there are many different finishes you can get with it. If you spray heavy normal coats, you get that standard finshes, If you spray heavy coats from close up, you can get a cool shimmering metallic finish, and if you spray from farther away than normal you can get a light textured finish. When you ask them about curing time it's only for the standard application and they quote about 2 weeks for full air cure. If you're in a rush try the last method I mentioned as the paint generally cures in about 2 days or less. A little fan blowing room temp air or slightly heated air really decreases the cure time too.

Cheers,

Nish

[skiraly017]

During one experiment session, I applied the Rustoleum clear clear and it "puckered" the Hammertone instantly. I thought that was strange because it was not like I was mixing brands.

When you ask them about curing time it's only for the standard application and they quote about 2 weeks for full air cure.

Like I said, I'm at three weeks going on four and there was an issue. Hammertone isn't the easiest to work with. It took me a couple of tries to get a uniform "hammered" finish. I'll let the next batch of boxes dry for four weeks and see what happens.

[powerplayj]

I thought that the paint should be fully dry after three weeks, but after assembling my pedal I noticed that the washers had sunk into the paint. I did not bake the finish because when I tried that on one box, the finish seemed to change from hammered to wrinkle. The box was primed and dried in stable conditions (no excessive humidity, etc.). Has anyone else had this happen? Is there some magical paint mojo step I overlooked? Thanks for the help.

Yep, I think the textured finish is just thicker unlike normal paints.  It's like painting with a gloss vs. a flat or satin.  The gloss is just rubbery and will always retain this texture.  My washers sink as well.  Just keep your flat head screwdrivers handy!

[sir_modulus]

Which clear? This is my standard finishing steps for hammered metal paint:

Mark all holes
Drill all holes and countersink
Prep box with 100 grit sandpaper
Prep box with 220 grit sandpaper
Clean off box with napatha or warm water
Dry box thoroughly
Spray on Tremclad Self Etching Primer
wait 2 hours
spray on second coat
Let sit for about 1 day
Spray on hammered metal metal finish (two coats, 2 hrs apart)
Let cure for 1 day
Spray on clear coat
Bake clear coat SLIGHTLY
let dry for 5 hours
Decals/Signature on bottom of box
Second layer of clear coat
Bake SLIGHTLY
let dry for a day or two
Use file gently on inside of holes to expose metal for grounding.

And that's all. After this sort of procedure, the finish is hard enough, and the rust-oleum just cures over time.

I use:
http://www.rustoleum.com/Product.asp?ddf=73&frm_product_id=21&SBL=1
(in paint form, and then into my paintgun For Hammered stuff)
http://www.rustoleum.com/Product.asp?frm_product_id=18&SBL=1&dds=16
(#7701 paint form then in my paint gun for clear) OR
http://www.rustoleum.com/brand.asp?frm_brand_id=14&SBL=1
(Painter Touch Clear...whichever one is cheaper)

Cheers,

Nish

[petemoore]

Convection...
 The heat rising aspect can be utilized for creating some convection.
 Prop the door open a little bit.
 I used to do this to Brownberry W.Wheat bread to toast it to perfection, I found that with the door closed that condensation 'derived' from the moisture in the toast would collect on the inside surface of the glass door, allowing 'flow' by opening the door a bit made for 'toastier toast' as opposed to 'baked bread'.
 Exposing the heated paint to more 'air' or oxygen may be of some help, I believe the fumes build up inside the oven possibly preventing the curing or delaying it at X temperature.
 Mind that the thermostatic switch will turn on the heater coils 'more', because hot air is not being contained, it trips the thermostat.
 Taoster ovens heat stuff using convection [heating air that heats the subject in the oven] AND radiation...limiting the heater coils to less than glowing status [probably well below] is recommended to keep the radiation heat from too quickly heating up just the outer surface.
 Strewning aluminum foil between the curing item and the heating coils will defeat the direct radiation heating.

[Melanhead]

Which clear? This is my standard finishing steps for hammered metal paint:

I use:
http://www.rustoleum.com/Product.asp?ddf=73&frm_product_id=21&SBL=1
(in paint form, and then into my paintgun For Hammered stuff)
http://www.rustoleum.com/Product.asp?frm_product_id=18&SBL=1&dds=16
(#7701 paint form then in my paint gun for clear) OR
http://www.rustoleum.com/brand.asp?frm_brand_id=14&SBL=1
(Painter Touch Clear...whichever one is cheaper)

Cheers,

Nish

Weird! ... I've been trying to find a clear coat that doesn't bubble the hammer finish ... I tried the Krylon and Rustoleum clear ( I think it was the Painter's Touch ) and both caused a reaction after a days drying time ( for the hammer finish ) ... I'll have to try the #7701.

Another question ... I've been looking everywhere for the 7217
Bright Red Hammered and 7216 Deep Blue Hammered in spray can in Canada ... I've even tried to special order it through Home Depot but they're no help...

have you seen these colors

[skiraly017]

Canada
Rust-Oleum, Flecto, Tremco
220 Wicksteed Ave.
Toronto, ON
M4H 1G7
416-421-3300 Phone
416-467-2404 Fax

Technical Service Email: FLECTOTECH@tremcoinc.com
Flecto Brands (Varathane & Watco)
Tremco Retail Products

I've had the best luck ordering from mom & pop hardware stores.

[sir_modulus]

I get my hammered stuff from a store called rondex in my city. They mix it up in any color etc..

For my normal use though (since the other store is ridiculously far away :cry: ) I go to home depot, and mine has a good stock. I have a can of the red stuff at home, and used to have a can of the dark blue. I just can't seem to find the grey...(I have silver...but it's too light...)

Cheers,

Nish

[Melanhead]

I get my hammered stuff from a store called rondex in my city. They mix it up in any color etc..

For my normal use though (since the other store is ridiculously far away :cry: ) I go to home depot, and mine has a good stock. I have a can of the red stuff at home, and used to have a can of the dark blue. I just can't seem to find the grey...(I have silver...but it's too light...)

Cheers,

Nish

Haven't seen grey either ... just silver.

I use copper mainly but all they stock here in both Halifax area stores is Brown,Copper,Silver,gold and black! ...

[Melanhead]

Canada
Rust-Oleum, Flecto, Tremco
220 Wicksteed Ave.
Toronto, ON
M4H 1G7
416-421-3300 Phone
416-467-2404 Fax

Technical Service Email: FLECTOTECH@tremcoinc.com
Flecto Brands (Varathane & Watco)
Tremco Retail Products

I've had the best luck ordering from mom & pop hardware stores.

Thanks ... I talked to them a while back on the phone. they even gave me the extension of the person to order from to give tgo however I find willing to do so. That's when I tried to get it through home depot. The paint department wasn't interested in oredering even though I was going to buy a case of each ( I think this is the minimum ... )

I'll try a smaller shop .... they seem to have better customer service

[skiraly017]

I smoothed some of the ridges out with a flat screwdriver blade wrapped in a polishing cloth. I noticed that I did not have the ridge/ripple problem on the sides of the box and now I'm wondering if I may have laid the paint on too thick on the top.

As for my painting technique -

1. Sand the box.
2. 2/3 coats of primer, five minutes between coats.
3. Lightly sand the last coat of primer.
4. 2/3 coats of Hammered finish.
5. Place in oven. I have a gas oven that is always "warm" so I do not turn it on. I just leave the box in there over night.
6. Remove box from oven and "air dry" for 7-14 days.
7. Apply decals.
8. 2/3 coats of clear gloss.
9. Repeat step five.
10. Wax and buff the box.
11. Assemble pedal.

As for color availablity, I've got a mom & pop hardware store near me that's been in business since the 40's. They are more than happy to order whatever I need and usually get it in a few days.

[sir_modulus]

That's cool...I should try buffing my boxes too!

As for the ridge problem, that occurs when too little time is put between the coats. Try spraying light coats for the first two, letting completely dry then finishing with a heavy coat.

Cheers,

Nish

[ildar]

When using a primer for metal, make sure of two things:
1) It is intended for the material you are priming-XIM is THE BEST metal primer, period. The only drawback is you cannot use lacquer as a topcoat, but enamels, urethane-based, and even latex-based paints will work.
2) The primer is compatible with your topcoat. Just because one manufacturer makes the products you are using, that in no way means they are compatible. READ LABELS and ask your paint supplier questions.

Otherwise, the only necessary steps are wiping oils and dirt off the box with alcohol or paint thinner, priming and painting. Baking is optional and of questionable merit. Sanding metal is a big waste of time. Sand the primer if you want, but be ready to apply 3 or more coats if you want to sand.
The major thing to remember when applying finish coats:you must apply several THIN coats of paint, letting each coat dry sufficiently. Again, READ LABELS. Some enamels take up to 24 hours before recoat, and 30 days for a full cure.

[amz-fx]

Why does paint suck these days??

It is because of regulations in California, believe it or not.  Because California has had trouble meeting Federal air quality standards, they are regulating a number of industries to reduce the emissions of volatile organic compounds, VOCs.

VOCs are any compound with at least 1 but less than 13 carbon atoms, or a vapor pressure of less than 0.1mmHg.  This includes almost every fast drying solvent except acetone, which is exempt....  mineral spirits, toluene, xylene and other petroleum solvents are limited.  

The California regulations limit the amount of VOCs (fast evaporating) compounds that can be used in spray paint (and many other consumer products).  A percentage of volatile materials are allowed but the propellants used to make the can spray are VOCs, so paint formulators have to use very slow drying solvents in order to meet these regulations!  

Whereas back in the mid-90s you could buy fast drying, quick hardening paint at your local hardware store, today you can only get reformulated slow-cure paint!  Professional paint shops can use specially formulated paint that is not available for sale to consumers which do not have to meet these regulations and are the fast drying, hard curing old style paints.

Because California is such a large market, spray paint manufacturers make all of their paints meet these regulations and sell them nationwide --- so the paint I buy in Louisiana is the slow-dry version even though there are no regulations aginst the old style down here!

Why regulate paint?  Or window cleaner, insecticides, air fresheners, etc.?  Because it is easier to regulate consumer products who do not have a strong unified lobby in California as do the power plant industry or heavy manufacturing or auto industries (though autos are regulated in CA).

regards, Jack

[sir_modulus]

Hehe..my cousin has a lisence to spray 2 part automotive poly and a good spray booth, so whenever I go around to his place....my pedals get done well  

Really though, if you gently bake rust-oluem boxes,as per my previous instuctions, they cure a lot faster.

Cheers,

Nish