Opamp Big Muff Pi vs. Swollen Pickle Jumbo Fuzz

[WildMountain]

I am getting quite interested in the Way Huge Swollen Pickle Jumbo Fuzz. As I understand it's supposed to be a Big Muff Pi using a quad opamp instead of four transistors, along with other mods/changes in parts values.
Reading along on the internet I found some comments of people who heard an opamp Big Muff and say they sound much better/larger than the "regular" versions.
What I would like to know is: What would it take to build an opamp Big Muff Pi, maybe even mod it to Pickle specs? Would it be a lot more work than building a regular BMP? Even more so: Would it be worth the work (besides being an interesting project from an EE's point of view)? Are there any layouts yet of an opamp BMP?
Now I understand Way Huge effects are sometimes considered here as a sensitive subject, so tell me if I am being too curious for my own good. It's just that, with all this mystery surrounding them they are soooo intrigueing. The Red Llama is on my to-build list too along with building a Ross Comp and upgrading it to Saffron Squeeze specs.
Thanks for any help.

[Mark Hammer]

I am getting quite interested in the Way Huge Swollen Pickle Jumbo Fuzz. As I understand it's supposed to be a Big Muff Pi using a quad opamp instead of four transistors, along with other mods/changes in parts values.
Reading along on the internet I found some comments of people who heard an opamp Big Muff and say they sound much better/larger than the "regular" versions.
What I would like to know is: What would it take to build an opamp Big Muff Pi, maybe even mod it to Pickle specs? Would it be a lot more work than building a regular BMP? Even more so: Would it be worth the work (besides being an interesting project from an EE's point of view)? Are there any layouts yet of an opamp BMP?
Now I understand Way Huge effects are sometimes considered here as a sensitive subject, so tell me if I am being too curious for my own good. It's just that, with all this mystery surrounding them they are soooo intrigueing. The Red Llama is on my to-build list too along with building a Ross Comp and upgrading it to Saffron Squeeze specs.
Thanks for any help.

Well, you heard right and you heard wrong.

There IS a chip on the Swollen Pickle, but it just happens to be a chip with 4 matched transistors.  IC packages can house all sorts of things, even simple passive components (like resistor networks).  The schematic for the Swollen Pickle has been posted here, so dig through the last 20 pages and you'll find it.

I don't think Way Huge pedals are considered THAT sensitive a subject since Jeorge Tripps (the maker) is now happily employed at Line 6 for the last while and hasn't made them for a while.  As their various schematics have shown up, it's become clearer that their designs were not necessarily that different from other things at the time; they just involved making some sensible choices within existing designs, and building them well with good parts.  The Red Llama, for instance, is very close to the Anderton Tube Sound Fuzz from EPFM-II, with a couple of component value changes intended to improve the functioning of the unit.

[WildMountain]

How much does the Swollen Pickle have to do with the Opamp BMP then?
What kind of IC (part number) should I use if I wanted to do this? Is it worthwhile to use such an IC (soundwise), or would 4 matched transistors give the same sound?
I have found the Swollen Pickle layout in the layout/schematics gallery indeed. Had I seen this before, I would've known about the 4 transistor-IC. I guess the opamp BMP and the fact that the Picke is based on the BMP (opamp or not) led me in the wrong direction.

[nelson]

The swollen pickle is just a normal transistor muff with a modified tone stack, the ONLY difference apart from the modified tonestack is that it uses a quad transistor IC instead of four seperate transistors.

The opamp big muff is a different beast.

[WildMountain]

Would it make a difference in sound if I used a quad transistor IC instead of 4 separate transistors?
Which IC's can do this quad transistor thing?

[puretube]

typing "swollen pickle" into the search-field offers 45 linx...

the one you look for is THIS 1

hup!

[brad]

I don't think there is much difference between the IC Transistor Array and regular ol' transistors, because Jeorge said he really chose it because an IC would be more consistant between pedals.  I don't think the actual name of the chip has surfaced either...because he sanded the numbers off 'em!

You could probably get very similar results by modding the tone stack of a commercial Big Muff to the values in the Pickle.  However, I reckon the op-amp muff would be a more interesting build because no one seems to make it much.  You could play around with different opamps and clipping diodes and come up with something cool.

[bwanasonic]

The interesting thing to study on the WH SP is the tone stack. If you plan on building any type of Big Muff circuit, be sure to download the Duncan Tone Stack Calculator:

http://www.duncanamps.com/

It's a great way to study the BMP tone stack.

Kerry M

[petemoore]

I think the same reason I haven't built an OA BMP is that the schematic is sketchy.
 I couldn't quite figure the indications of which wire goes where, tho if I built it, probably I could.

[D Wagner]

The quad transistor array is an MPQ3904.

Here is the datasheet.  http://www.centralsemi.com/leadedpdf/MPQ3904.PDF

I hope that this helps.  

Derek

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Looking at the data sheet, the transistors don't appear to be matched.

[soggybag]

I recently made two BMPs using a quad transistor array ala the Swollen Pickle. I made one with the standard BMP tone stack and the other with the Pickle Tone stack. I used four Si diodes in the first and 3 Si and one Ge diode in the second because there was a Ge diode in the ashtray that holds the left over parts.

I ordered the parts from Mouser. I think the part number was NTE2321. I think they sound pretty good. Though I'm not sure if they sounded any better than discreet transistors.

I think the NTE2321 is four 2N3904 which I think are lower gain than the 2N5088 that everyone seems to be using. I'm not sure if this makes a difference. I may have to try and whip up a transistor version for comparison.

I bread boarded an Op-Amp Big Muff. I chnaged my mind on building this as the transistor version sounded better to me.

I posted this picture before I know, but I think they came out so good I just couldn't help myself posting it again. You can see the NTE2321 in the center of the PCB. These chips were about $3 from Mouser. I found some MPQ3904 at a place that sells surplus chips for video games for about $0.75 but they had a $15 minimum. So if I make another It'll probably be four transistors.

[col]

I can't stop making big muff type clones. I have made some for other people as well who like the sound so much. My favourite has to be the first triangle knob version/foxey lady which has been my main fuzz pedal since I built my first one. I actually like the op-amp version but it is much 'darker' sounding than the others but with the same endless sustain. I have looked at the swollen pickle threads after reading a review of one but the pictures of the board don't show up very well on my computer. From the layout, the posted schematic and the fact that this is a quad tranny IC it looks to be the same as a BM Pi with a couple of different values as other people have said. If i could find the correct values I might build a board just to see what difference thay make.
I do prefer slightly lower transistors than the 2N5088s such as a BC109C or BC184C as with the higher gain components I get a lot of squeal even with very short leads in an aluminium box.

[idiot savant]

I recently made two BMPs using a quad transistor array ala the Swollen Pickle. I made one with the standard BMP tone stack and the other with the Pickle Tone stack. I used four Si diodes in the first and 3 Si and one Ge diode in the second because there was a Ge diode in the ashtray that holds the left over parts.

I ordered the parts from Mouser. I think the part number was NTE2321. I think they sound pretty good. Though I'm not sure if they sounded any better than discreet transistors.

I think the NTE2321 is four 2N3904 which I think are lower gain than the 2N5088 that everyone seems to be using. I'm not sure if this makes a difference. I may have to try and whip up a transistor version for comparison.

Sounds neat, I just finished a layout for a quad-array chip. I'm still waiting for a few parts, before I start. I figured the quad layout is the way to go since you can just pop out the chip, and put trasistors right in the socket if you wanted to try mismatched ones.
How would you describe the differences in the muff tonestack vs. the pickle tonestack. I've heard the pickle has a big mid-scoop.

[MartyMart]

I can't stop making big muff type clones. I have made some for other people as well who like the sound so much. My favourite has to be the first triangle knob version/foxey lady which has been my main fuzz pedal since I built my first one. I actually like the op-amp version but it is much 'darker' sounding than the others but with the same endless sustain. I have looked at the swollen pickle threads after reading a review of one but the pictures of the board don't show up very well on my computer. From the layout, the posted schematic and the fact that this is a quad tranny IC it looks to be the same as a BM Pi with a couple of different values as other people have said. If i could find the correct values I might build a board just to see what difference thay make.
I do prefer slightly lower transistors than the 2N5088s such as a BC109C or BC184C as with the higher gain components I get a lot of squeal even with very short leads in an aluminium box.

I have a re-issue BM with 5089's in it which I love for that classic HUGE
sound, built the Triangle version which has 0.1uf caps everywhere and
a reduced gain structure, but it only works well with a HB equiped gtr, not
so good with a strat, but the "tame" sound has a charm about it .....
I'm tempted to build another which is somewhere "inbetween" the two,
sort of "thinner" like the triangle but still as raucous as the original !
Tips anyone ?

Marty.

[WildMountain]

Puretube: thanks for referring me to that thread. Somehow I missed that one in my search. Great info.
Bwanasonic: I'll check out the tonestack calculator for sure. Seems like a very useful tool. My dad tells me there is software around that can be applied to use your desktop PC as an oscilloscope and DMM. Do you, or anybody else, know about software like that?
Can anybody say what the differences between the various Big Muffs are? What kind of sound would I get with the different ones?

[soggybag]

To me the differenence between the Stock and Pickle tone stacks seems to be the mid Scoop. The pickle has a more dramatic effect when you turn the knob. The stock tone control feels like an effective but standard bass trebble response. I like the pickle stack but feel it present enough bass. Maybe there are some other tweaks that could get more out of it.

I spent some time fiddling with the duncan calculator. But ended up using the stock and pickle values.

[WildMountain]

So I guess the main difference between BMP and Swollen Pickle is the improved tone stack in the Pickle (at least: a lot of people think it's a better tone stack)? Any other major differences?
Of course there's also the great looks, build quality and cool name of the Way Huge pedals.

[soggybag]

I think it's more about opinion. The most accurate description I read describing the Pickle tone stack described it as "modern". It has a sound that people are using these days. I'm sure it's more about what you want to hear.

[WildMountain]

Checked the Pickle schematic by Steve C with the BMP schematics by GGG and Tonepad. No very large differences in general, besides the different trannies used.
Compared tonestacks with the Duncan Tonestack Calculator. Pickle does indeed have a bigger mid scoop. I would say that about 95% of this difference is being made by just one cap: .047uF in the Pickle instead of .01uF in the BMP. This calls for a Swollen Pickle with a "BMP-tonestack switch". I will try this mod if I get to building one (gathering parts at this very moment).