TS7 Tonelock Mod questions

[MrGuitardeath]

I've never been entirely impressed by these pedals and overall am not happy with mine. I now use an NTE5533 because it puts the 4558 to shame and changed the tone cap so I get a much smoother bleed.

I want to get rid of the AWEFUL midrange that dominates this pedals output. I prefer a nice hollow bassy and trebley overdrive with at the very least a flat midrange output if not, a cut mid.
The circuit is simple as can be once you have it apart but I am still not good enough to know exactly what caps and resistors are doing what...

Does anyone know what resistors and caps I need to swap to get a flat midrange response and if possible, boosted bass and treble?

Also, any benefit in swapping out the clipping diodes for a less brittle and harsh sound?
LED's maybe??


Thanks a bunch guys

[cd]

Junk/sell it and get another pedal.  All TS pedals, and its close variant, the BOSS SD-1, are ALL about mids.  The essence of the pedal is to cut the bass and highs for a smooth overdrive, which brings out the mids.  This is directly opposite what you want - lots of bass and highs and no mids.  There is no easy way to bring out the bass and treble and cut the mids at the same time.  At best, you can change the .047u cap on the negative input of the 1st opamp stage to a 10u cap, and run the tone control on max all the time - that will bring out all the bass and treble, but will do nothing with the mids.

All in all, you'd be better off with a BOSS MT-2 Metal Zone.  That pedal has hopped up bass and treble, and can suck out the mids for your desired tone.  Or if you've got no $, try the Danelectro FAB Metal pedal, it will hold you over until you can save enough for a Metal Zone.

[TheBigMan]

What CD said, except I'd recommend the Boss BD-2 Blues Driver.  It has little to no midrange, with lots of treble and plenty of bass once you mod the tone control to be usable.

Cutting all of the mids out of a Tube Screamer is a bit like buying a Marshall and then modding it to sound like a Twin Reverb.  It's the pedal's defining characteristic, so if you don't like it I'd try something else.

[MrGuitardeath]

Well, I'm sure you guys are more knowledgeable about this stuff than I but my experience has been that the peak resonance frequency(s) is set by caps and resistors.
...as I understand, typically an overdrive pedal has whatever dominant bandwidth you choose or typically a flat frequency response(flat enough). Generally it's either a cut mid and boosted bass & treble or boosted mid and cut bass and treble. Fundamentally, it's a fixed EQ circuit.

I am really inclined to believe it's a few simple cap and resistor changes, I mean come on guys, this is a DIY STOMBOX FORUM and you're telling me to buy another pedal??

Thanks for the pedal ideas but I want a simple overdrive circuit with a fixed EQ effects and your standard "tone" control....., far too much processing going on in the pedals mentioned...I find the metal zone works best on tube amps with smooth fuzzy overdrive, too harsh for most any digital or solid state based amp/preamp.

Surely this issue can be resolved with some cap and resistor mods. I've read about mods that cut the mid and push the bass and treble forward...like the SRV mod. Fundamentally, tube screamer pedals are very similar or the same.
As far as I know, the midrange dominance is just part of the tone design, not the actual Tube Emulation which fundamentally is what this pedal was designed and ultimately bought for. It makes no sense to me that this pedal would have such a dominant midrange without it being intentional.....

[cd]

You don't understand what's going on inside a TS.  Read this article:

http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/TStech/tsxfram.htm

The bulk of the frequency shaping in a TS is going on in three places:

1) the clipping section (first opamp stage), where the RC combination on the - input of the opamp sets the low frequency rolloff (at around 720Hz)

2) RC filter after the 1st opamp stage (1k/.22u combo) which dumps harsh highs to ground

3) the tone control, which is not quite a boost/cut but more of a cut only once you take the #2 into account; i.e. it restores the previous high cut (flat reble) when the tone control is maxed out.

Nowhere in the TS circuit is there a mid cut going on.  The effect of the bass cut (#1) and treble cut (#2 + #3) results in the famed TS mid-hump.  I know what you're thinking, why can't I just change the bass cut into a bass boost, and the treble cut into a treble boost for a mid-cut?  Unfortunately, it's not that simple.  You could:

4) change the clipping section rolloff point to a very low rolloff point, like 1Hz (increase the cap from .047u to 10u) then cut the highs (change 51pf cap to .047u) however, then the high end frequency cut (i.e. where the treble cut takes places) shifts with the DRIVE control.

5) eliminate the .22u to ground on the + input of the 2nd opamp stage, this will result in a lot more highs

6) #5 will have the effect of opening up the highs so the tone control then becomes a true cut/boost

The problem with #4 is that with the massive high end cut, the actual distortion level goes down dramatically, i.e. very little clipping going on.  What is the typical tack taken by pedla designers to cut mids?  Simulated inductors (look up the EQ article on Geofex) which can be done with two opamp stages, but not in the TS because the traces (and extra opamps) simply aren't there.

The bottom line is you can't polish a turd.  You are trying to turn the TS into something it is not, so why not expend your resources on something that will suit your musical tastes.

[MrGuitardeath]

I'm still inclined to believe I can hollow out the tone from some basic mods. I mean if nothing else I could build a $1 fixed EQ circuit to slap on the output of the pedal. I'm sure someone can tell me how to do a simple mod to this circuit rather than the generic "part swap" mods which are rarely as tone altering as they are rumoured.

I understand what is going on to some degree but the frequency is due to the caps and resistors as well as the circuits design. I mean come on dude, if it's not the circuit itself, it sure as hell isn't the op amp.

Fundamentally all this pedal does is overdrive your signal and thicken it up with a mass amount of THD and midrange.....it boosts the mids and treble essentially which thickens your harmonics AKA Harmonic Distortion

I agree though, it is sort of a turd. I have found the simple circuits sound the best though. My Arion Tubulator puts it to shame and uses far less parts than the Screamers and most overdrives.
Thanks for all the help though. I may be stuck with the part swap mods and squeezing in a fixed EQ circuit to cut the mids but we'll see.....

[Mark Hammer]

It's not a "bad" pedal, but the crux of the matter is that it's the tone you want to change, not the quality of clipping. Unfortunately, the quality of clipping is inextricably interwoven with the tone.  In other words, while all the stuff you say about caps and resistors is true, in the case of the TS-type pedal, if you change any of it you can end up with something that doesn't sound at all like a TS in terms of clipping quality.

*IF* you are prepared to accept that qualitative change, then by all means go for it.  Just don't be that surprised if it doesn't sound like a TS when you're done with it.

BTW, whether you want to perfect a TS, or simply know where to chop off the head in order to turn it into something new, you are still advised to read the GEOFEX article.  You should be able to make it stand on its head and spin plates with its feet when you're done.

[MrGuitardeath]

BTW, whether you want to perfect a TS, or simply know where to chop off the head in order to turn it into something new, you are still advised to read the GEOFEX article.  You should be able to make it stand on its head and spin plates with its feet when you're done.

I guess this is probably the pedal most gearheads got their start from. It's the TS7 with the hot switch so I'm not really worried about clipping. I just want it for a signal boost and the harmonics it adds....basically I have a couple rigs that just need pushed over the edge a little bit.

I think it's a great sounding pedal, there is just absolutely no use for the abundance of midrange with most of todays gear...unless you still go for that old school dominant ronchy mid tone. Regardless of the pedal, I think most all modern amps can achieve it with a good guitar.

My main problem is, it's a mod I was hoping to get information on now rather than trying to doctor this pedal over however many weeks or months in my spare time. I'm poor otherwise I'd just buy something else or sell this and buy something better.... for that matter build something better but I just can't spare the playing time and do not have the money.

[cd]

I'm still inclined to believe I can hollow out the tone from some basic mods. I mean if nothing else I could build a $1 fixed EQ circuit to slap on the output of the pedal. I'm sure someone can tell me how to do a simple mod to this circuit rather than the generic "part swap" mods which are rarely as tone altering as they are rumoured.

I understand what is going on to some degree but the frequency is due to the caps and resistors as well as the circuits design. I mean come on dude, if it's not the circuit itself, it sure as hell isn't the op amp.

You still don't get it.  You say you don't have the time or money, but you're willing to waste a lot of time trying to turn a fundamentally midrangy pedal into something with hopped up bass, treble, and no mids?  Read that GEOFEX article, twice then again, with a calculator in hand.  Change some part values around and see what it does to the frequency response.  You're not going to get sucked out mids no matter what you do.

In the end it's your pedal, if you want to slap an EQ on it go right ahead.  Think of it this way: you've got a Honda Civic on your hands, but what you want/need is a Ford F150.  You can put a gigantic, loud, badass muffler on it, but it's still going to be a Civic.  Change the headers, the spark plugs, re-do the lights and insides, it's still going to be a Civic.  All the part changes and mods in the world isn't going to make it a rear wheel drive towing machine.  So all the time & energy wasted on trying to make it that way, well, you might as well have gotten the F150 in the first place.

[MrGuitardeath]

Oh but I do get it.

I was assuming since it is fundamentally the tube screamer circuit, at some point someone would have modded it to do what I am saying.

Had someone spoke up and known exactly how to do what I am saying, I would have done the mod and essentially learned from a reverse engineering stand point because I simply put it together.
....while this seems antiproductive from a learning stand point, you'd be surprised what I have picked up on that the properly educated guys have missed.

Anyway, I was ultimately hoping someone could help me with my own solution that I figured was probably the easiest but least rational...though I'd think it would be the most rational.
Any ideas where I can pick up schematics for fixed EQ circuits?

I know it will cause a volume drop but the pedal has more than enough juice to make up for it. Might even be a good idea because those highs are a bit shrill..
I had some in the past but all I can dig up is the Dunacn Amps Tone Stack Calculator. I'm sure I can squeeze in a tiny circuit to tie into the 1/4 output jack that can cut out the mids and maintain the integrity of the pedals current performance and of course incorporate a bypass switch so it's just another goody......

[cd]

Any ideas where I can pick up schematics for fixed EQ circuits?

Guess you didn't read GEOFEX.com then, there's a whole article on EQ there.

[TheBigMan]

Oh but I do get it.

I was assuming since it is fundamentally the tube screamer circuit, at some point someone would have modded it to do what I am saying.

There does come a point though where it becomes impractical to mod.  When you take a pedal whose defining quality is mids and you want to change that then clearly you have the wrong pedal.  The amount you'll have to change or add to get what you want, it will NOT fundamentally be the Tube Screamer circuit.

If you have a phillips screwdriver and you need a flat head, you go out and buy a flat head.  You don't grind the phillips flat.

[nelson]

:shock:     :roll:     :lol:

The analogies are great!


Read the article on GEOFEX.

If you have very little money I recommend you SELL the pedal and use the cash to build a pedal that suits your requirements.

You cant make souffle out of pizza dough and water. (adding to the chorus of analogies)

There are plenty of pedals out there that you will be able to build cheaply that will suit your needs, plus you can get a paint by numbers guide on how to do it.

:idea:  :?:

[MrGuitardeath]

Of course it's still the tube screamer circuit. A dodge neon is still a dodge neon if I modify the exhaust, slap on a turbo, change parts for pressure ratio compensation and add a few other little goodies.

I've seen the Geofx site plenty but I'm looking to reverse engineer things, not read something over and over again until I get things right on my own. For the way I work and learn, it's antiproductive.....

Anyway, I thought what made the pedal famous was it's a tube emulation pedal with super rich harmonics, not so much it's dominating midrange.

Semantics aside, my fixed EQ soultion(nonadjustable passive EQ circuit) is the best and easiest solution isn't it?

Justr curious, I'll likely sell it and buy the Behringer rip off of the Sansamp for $30, lol.

[cd]

I've seen the Geofx site plenty but I'm looking to reverse engineer things, not read something over and over again until I get things right on my own. For the way I work and learn, it's antiproductive.....

Anyway, I thought what made the pedal famous was it's a tube emulation pedal with super rich harmonics, not so much it's dominating midrange.

You obviously have not read anything, so don't worry about learning.  You know what reverse engineer means, right?  Take something apart and analyze it to make your own copy without duplicating the original?  It's obvious you still don't get it.  The Tubescreamer **IS** all about dominant midrange.  Dominating midrange **IS** the sound of a Tubescreamer.  Forget any tube emulation marketing BS and use your ears.  It's obvious you don't like that sound, so why mess around with something that is ONLY about that sound?

[MrGuitardeath]

shit man, I may not know as much tech wise as you but I'm obviously not stupid. I offered a simple and solid answer that any of you guys could have easily given I would assume.
The fixed circuit filter.
I just found nothing about a FIXED FILTER CIRCUIT on that site or any of the others though I know I have found them before.
Besides, that site is a bit of a mess to navigate and I've always wanted to email the guy in regards to this issue.

..... I've dug through these sites for months and some even years trying to figure out where everyone was going wrong with this mythical belief that tubes do something that can not be achieved with chip amps.
Completely untrue.

Under analysis everything may not match up exactly or even close but it's not hard to fool everyones ears once the frequency settings are close, signal voltage and response is similar and the power amp is capable of reproducing a decently high level of THD....from the research and experimenting I've done, a simple push pull amp has a good organic response like a tube amp and generally the design is one that yields a high level of THD. Even if the harmonics are not in the signal, the amp will reproduce them.

ANYWAY, any pedal can give a dominant midrange, the key to this pedal is the op amp used in it and the rich harmonics it adds to your tone. Hense the term tube screamer and why it was so often used on 80's soiled states. ....at least that is what I have always read, been told and concluded on my own from using the pedal. The op amp most everyone favors has close specs to a 12AX7 tube although there are several other chips that are as close if not closer and I by far favor the NTE5532(very transparent and natural sounding..balanced).
I really like the pedal to be perfectly honest but will only be happy with it if I once I scoop out those mids.

I'm looking to add the most simple type of circuit I could that I have actually built before. I just no longer have the data or resources to hunt one down or the information for designing one.
Reverse engineering in the sense that I see the circuit, see the lay out, REFERENCE the schematic and put it together how I want and go on instinct for with what I may think will work. Then as time goes on, I learn how the filter circuit worked in the beginning before I did my frankensteined, but did so BACKWARDS.
You're a real jerk and guys like me are the ones who make the bizarre and break through innovations on this crap.

Yeah I may not know as much as you tech wise pal but I sure as hell am smarter than you.
...as if I don't understand how a simple fixed filter circuit works :|
...the funny part is I am pretty sure you couldn't grasp how I understand it if I explained it based on my minds perception

[Ed G.]

Look up the info for the Fulltone Fulldrive with the flat mids mod. It's here somewhere. Should apply to the tube screamer as they're basically the same pedal.
A tube screamer doesn't HAVE to be so middy. Mike Fuller made a mint on the flat mids models.

[ejbasses]

Such hostile posts. They are not needed in this forum. Leave that kind of attitude at the HC forum.

So.... What did you do to the thing? care to post pics? schematics of your mods? Possibly even a soundclip head to head of your version with the stock one?

[Fret Wire]

No need for excitement on either side of this debate.  If you want to try to flatten the mids a little, take the .047uf cap in the clipping section (.047uf/4k7 section), and change it to a .1uf or .22uf. This will pump up the bass (339 or 154hz rolloff) and give the impression of flattened mids. But, you may now find that you'll have to roll the tone control up alot, and the treble might still sound dull. I find this does work with a sharp sounding Tele or Strat going through a bright amp. For everything else, the highs may sound muted. You could also cut the 51pf cap in half, value wise. It's not really meant to be an eq fix, but sometimes the increased high end fizz works.

So was this the magic answer for taming the mids? Nope, but it will give you an idea of what the others were saying with a minimum of work on your part. Not knowing your gear or ears, it may work just fine for you.

[MrGuitardeath]

ah right on guys. I guess the best thing to do is go ahead and perform the cap mod to extend the bass response..as far as the highs go, this thing is shrill no matter what, even after swapping the tone cap out for several others. I cure it with my mixer but I'm sure we all know how that doesn't quite fix the issue....
It's ratio is much much smoother with the cap I kept in though and it has a little lest cut which I don't use much of if I bother to at all. The shrillness was only mildly dilluted.  If I'm still not heading the direction I ultimately hope to be heading, keep it as is or slap together a tone stack in an empty casing post pedal and see if that does the trick.
....I reckon ultimately I could just squeeze it in, use trim pots and set them to my liking.

If nothing else I'll have a higher performance screamer to sell or trade for something else...it's hard to get rid of stuff once you start tweaking it and feel you can take it further...I'm sure you all know the feeling. If I end up squooshing that tone stack in there, I guess it could open the doors for a mod offering the ultimate flexibility.
...and goodbye shrill!
Not that I'm looking to cut them by any means, just smooth them in the final process of gutting the nazal cavity like I am hoping.

Otherwise the Behringer V-TONE GUITAR GDI21 it will eventually be cuz I'm poor.

I've learned plenty from the sites, my resources for making these projects happen just tend to be unreliable so it has been impossible to make it a regular process in my life... :?