Is it illegal to 'copy the fulldrive 2'?

[wampcat1]

Let me be more correct -- I developed a mod that makes the sd-1 sound and react just like the fulldrive2 (who'da thunk, being they are both tubescreamer based?), and I got a nasty email from Mike Fuller this week, basically a cease and decist letter.
Can I get in trouble legally for selling this modification? I've been doing quite a few of these mods for fellers in Nashville, I think I may've caused a bit of a rucus (sp?)!

Just in case you're wondering, here is the soundclip:
http://www.indyguitarist.com/soundclips/fulldrive_sd1-compare.mp3

(ad copy from my website below)
Now seriously...we ALL know the fulldrive is a hot rodded tubescreamer, right? We also know the sd-1 is basically a tubescreamer with a few changes. So I got to wondering if I could make the sd-1 SOUND, FEEL, and RESPOND like the fulldrive...and I DID IT!!

Check out this soundclip--both pedals are set exactly the same, played through a laney vc-30 which is basically a vox ac-30, and I used a strat (single coils). On the clip, I'll play the fulldrive first, kick it off, and then play the sd-1 mod -- in my opinion it sounds even BETTER than the fulldrive!!
</ end web copy >

Realistically, its not rocket science, and I'm sure most of you all know that, I'm just wondering if I can get in trouble for patterning my mod after a pedal that is a copy itself!

Thanks,
Brian

[cd]

Try a search - it's not illegal to mod your SD-1 to anything you like, but things can get sticky if you're advertising using the word Fulltone.

I don't know what the big deal is.  The lawyer types here can chime in with the exact issue, but take a cue from Energizer - they always refer to the other guy as the "copper top".

[mlabbee]

It depends a lot on how you're selling your project. I can't imagine Fulltone has any patents on these mods since they've all been out there forever.  What exactly is he asking you to cease and desist from doing?  Are you using the "Fulltone" name in your ads?

[Ben N]

I think that is right, cd.  Probly makes sense to take his name out of it, and just refer to him as "a well known boutique overdrive" or some such tripe.

But I don't know what Mike has his shorts all knotted up about.  To my mind, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and if a guy doing a few mods on $40 pedals advertises that he can make them "just like" a $200 FD2, do you think anyone doesn't understand that that makes Fuller the standard, and Brian the imitator (no offence)?  Honestly, I don't think anyone who can afford the FD and prefers it is going to say, "Hey, I can save a few bucks buying an SD-1 and getting it modded."

Maybe he'd be mollified if you linked to his site. :wink:

Ben

[Gilles C]

I think that it's not illegal to mod a SD-1 with different parts than used by someone else to sound better. (Even then, I still have the Fat-Boost/Mini-Booster story coming back in my head...).

But depending on who you try to emulate, some find it like a compliment, some don't.

So it may be better to call it a or SFD-1 (or 2) for Super Full Overdrive mod.

That was just a though, I know nothing about it being more legal or not...

Gilles

[RDV]

...or 'that pompous, obnoxious, ego-driven, megalomaniac mod'?

Did I say that?

RDV

[phillip]

(Even then, I still have the Fat-Boost/Mini-Booster story coming back in my head...)

Haha yeah I was thinking that too.  Sounds like Fuller's calling the kettle black to me

I don't think there's anything illegal about it...just take his name out of it.  Someone should drop Ibanez an email and inform them that Fuller's copying 90% of their circuit in his "fooldrive."

Phillip

[mlabbee]

Ooops - just noticed that you quoted your ad (sorry, I'm sick today and kind of spacey).  Now, this is NOT legal advice - you really should talk to your lawyer to review the C&D letter to help choose the best course of action, but basically, Fuller has a pretty weak case.  The only thing he can claim is trademark infringment which requires likelihood of customer confusion to prevail.  Your ad pretty clearly establishes that you are not selling fulldrives, but are in fact competing with him.

Using competitors trademarks in your ads when making comparisons is perfectly legal - just be clear that you give clear indications that you are not selling their product, you are not making their product and their trademarks are theirs.

Some options:

Easiest - pull his name off the ad
Moderately easy - put a clear disclaimer on the site that you are not related to or endorsed by Fuller and that Fulldrive is a trademark of (whatever Fuller's company name is)
Riskiest - do nothing.

And remember, just because he isn't likely to win doesn't mean he won't sue you anyway. But he'd also have to pay for a lawyer - few lawyers like to take loser cases.

[JT]

Just change the name to "Fooltone"  Mod

[Hal]

www.ts808.com

I can't imagine you're doing anything worse than that...And AFAIK, what that guy is doing is perfictly legal too.  You can't be featured in "guitar player" magazene or whatever it was if you're using illigal advertising tequniques.

wow, i cant spell.

[jimbob]

I agree. Take his name out of it. Or, say Fulltone-Like. Hehehe. I hate hearing about things like this-where c/d letters go out. Four letter words come streaming through my mind.

I say congrats! - if you managed to make that old dog bark a little better. Besides, who ever said Fulltone was all that great anyway? My opinion-I like them, Id own one. But i own a lot of different things and i dont speak for everyone.

STOP! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MAN! JUST STOP!

Just kidding! WFC.

[Ben N]

BTW, my take on the clip is that the SD-1 does sound better.  So, Brian, I'm guessing you upgraded some components for noise (the hiss in my SD-1 drives me nuts), switched to symmetrical clipping, and...?

Ben

[R.G.]

But I don't know what Mike has his shorts all knotted up about.

Just as an observation; historically, Mike's shorts have knotted easily about things like this.

There is some justification - Mike, like zv, is a self made pedal manufacturer, and when you've sweated making payroll a few weeks when sales haven't been good, you get hypersensitive about people doing knockoffs of your stuff. Mike hasn't yet said the magic pretty-please words to get people to quit reverse engineering his stuff in public, so it keeps coming up. And you did refer to the fulldrive directly, which makes trademark owners see red.

In all fairness, you don't attempt to sell your stuff (from what little I see quoted here) as fulltone stuff, and you do couch your opinions as opinions, so you probably would prevail in court if that were all there was to it.

However, anyone with a running business has a lot more money available for swatting gnats than a fellow gnat does. The reality of it is that you won't find a lawyer to represent you in any significant way for less than $5K ( a real bargain if you can get it, and think whether you want bargain basement lawyers) and more like $10K to start with, deposited up front. If you get dragged to court, you either pay up your $10K and perhaps more to be able to play on a level playing field, or you swallow hard and say "Yes, sir, mister Fuller sir, I know I did wrong and I won't do it NOOOO more." and you (probably) get to keep your $10K entry fee.

Ain't Justice a lovely lady?

On the other hand, it's fairly cheap to have an attorney that already does this kind of thing for you to churn out (yet more) cease and desist letters, maybe as little as $300-$500 per letter.

Which gets us back to your situation. Do you feel lucky today?

Being found to be perfectly right in court won't get your lawyer's fees back.

I believe that there have been cases where people have been C-ed and D-ed by Fuller, and have told him to go pound sand. The bluff hasn't been called that I know of. Of course, I don't follow court cases filed whereever it is that Fuller lives, only what I hear, and that's by no means exhaustive.

So - you're sitting next to a six hundred pound gorilla. He may be bluffing, may even just be having some fun. Or he may be genuinely in the mood for swatting gnats. Or all of the above. Sadly, the gnat's mood doesn't matter as much.

[jimbob]

Good point RG- But wouldnt someone in this business just as likely to say, "Oh, forget about it." Why waste hard earned bucks and take away from the company-if it is struggling? Assuming it is struggling. My best guess is that most smaller companies probably are OR would decide that its easier to just work something out with company A.  

Such a gamble!!

[cd]

Fuller only cares about the $$$ going into his own pocket.  If anything, no matter how tiny or inconsequential, seems to threaten that, he goes cuckoo.  Which is his right, but that doesn't mean he's getting any of my $$.

[Hal]

its really funny to see ZV's business stragedies compared with Fuller's.  Everyone here respects ZV, and it seems that most people despise fuller.  And they're in similar businesses - small, startup, specialy effects blah blah blah...

[Samuel]

although it is interesting to look at the divide between public relations between ZVex and Fulltone, I don't think attitudes towards the protection of their IP should differ at all.

[cd]

although it is interesting to look at the divide between public relations between ZVex and Fulltone, I don't think attitudes towards the protection of their IP should differ at all.

They do though.  Post a complete FD2 guide here (like was recently done) and you'll get nothing but praise, even hint about anything having to do with a ZV schematic and you'll get roasted.

[Steve C]

Everyone here respects ZV, and it seems that most people despise fuller.

I think that's because Zachery Vex is a Pedal Builder/Designer and Mike Fuller, Robert Keeley, etc., etc., etc., are Pedal Modifiers.  I'm sure there's some that will disagree about the Modifier part, but when all is said and done it's the undeniable truth.

[bobbletrox]

And here I was thinking the purpose of being in business was to steal profits away from your competitors.