early discrete circuit effects

[rch427]

Hey all -- I'm gathering info for a new project I'm about to embark on: building a multiple-effects unit based entirely on trad, discrete circuits. 

Here's the deal--I have some cheap '60s guitars (3 Danelectros & a Kay Airline) and my main musical thing is based in mid-to-late-'60s psych and sunshine pop.  I certainly can't afford to buy the 15 or so original, vintage boxes that I want, so I'll need to build 'em myself.  And, in the interest of historical accuracy and tone (and because I hate chips), I want to do it all with discrete circuits; no op-amps or ICs.  I'm going to build a single housing for them (about 18" wide, 12" deep and 6" tall) which will straddle the tube amp that I record my guitars with, placing it at waist level for maximum knob twiddling convenience while I set up for recording takes. 

Here's where I need your help.  The effects I want are roughly as follows, along with some examples:

Distortion/fuzz/waveform clipping/whatever--Vox Tone-Bender, Maestro Fuzz-Tone, Heathkit TA-28 or something similar

Treble-booster--maybe the Dallas Rangemaster or E-H Screaming Bird/Tree

Tremolo--Vox, Kay or ?

Ring modulator--Maestro?

Octave generator--Roger Mayer Octavia?

Overdriver--solid-state or simple tube

Chorus

Compressor

Parametric EQ

Bass booster

Sustainer

Attack/Decay
and/or
Auto-wah / envelope follower

Flanger

Phase shifter

Echo (not tape loop-based)

Noise gate

Spring reverb tank

Can anyone recommend effects to copy, or suggest a source for discrete circuit schematics for these effects?  FWIW, I prefer effects that do just one thing, but do it well.  Not fuzz/wah/stereo breath freshner or the like; just fuzz, just wah.  FWIW, I'm pretty handy with a soldering iron.  Thanks for any input.

[Pedal love]

I would start here: http://www.diystompboxes.com/pedals/schematics.html

[Connoisseur of Distortion]

just a warning: a phase shifter w/o ICs, is a bitch (thinking univibe). i have yet to see a chorus/flanger w/o ICs, and i am not familiar with a discrete noise gate (but i don't really watch those)

btw, that is a HUGE amount of effects to simply start out for. you will put in hundreds of dollars, and some of your projects don't even look possible. you might want to slow down and think about the discrete plan (so many more options with ICs) and probably tone down your plan to build all of these things.

but, if you really want alot of projects, go to places like

http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/

http://www.tonepad.com/

http://fuzzcentral.tripod.com/

there are many others, but these should get you started...
good luck!

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

An interestign thing about music 'back then' was, how little effects were used. An advantage of this, ws that when they WERE used, it was pretty high impact. I recommend thinking about whose work you admire & seeig what they used (there aren't many old FX that havn't been recreated).
The earliest compressors were a small amp drivign a small lightbulb, that affected a light dependent resistor in a voltage divider (part of the legedary joe meek sound, but I doubt one was ever used on stage).

[rch427]

>>"just a warning: a phase shifter w/o ICs, is a bitch (thinking univibe). i have yet to see a chorus/flanger w/o ICs"<<

This is exactly the sort of advice I need.  Thanks! 

>>"btw, that is a HUGE amount of effects to simply start out for. you will put in hundreds of dollars..."<<

Yeah--but it's still far less than I'd have to spend to get the effects separately.  I'm not worried about the cost (within reason).  As for the scope of the project...well, I just restored a '60s transistor organ, which included replacing almost 300 caps.  I'm not particularly worried about building 15 effects with an average of 10 or so components each. 

>>"...and some of your projects don't even look possible"<<

Which ones?  Anything beyond the phase-shifter/chorus/flanger you mentioned?  Aren't there choruses that use op-amps?  Isn't an op-amp just a "shortcut" that replaces like 20 transistors and 10 resistors with one component?  If that's the case, I don't mind making the discrete circuit to replace it with.  I *really* don't like chips.

Are there any stompbox websites that are *specifically* about discrete circuit units?  Or arrange them chronologically?

[rch427]

>>"I recommend thinking about whose work you admire & seeig what they used (there aren't many old FX that havn't been recreated)."<<

I'm not trying to re-create anyone's sound, per se.  While I really like the guitar sounds of say, Syd Barrett, Ed King (from Strawberry Alarm Clock), early Steve Hillage and Steve Hackett, I'm not looking to copy them, but rather to use their technology as a stepping-off point for my own experiments. 

>>"The earliest compressors were a small amp drivign a small lightbulb, that affected a light dependent resistor in a voltage divider (part of the legedary joe meek sound, but I doubt one was ever used on stage)."<<

Amazing!  I'm going to go Google that right now! 

[The Tone God]

Yeah--but it's still far less than I'd have to spend to get the effects separately.  I'm not worried about the cost (within reason).

It will cost you the same amount or more to build your own effects in general. You can buy a ready made already working units with the cost of little to no time or build your own effect, which takes time, and have to debug it which takes even more time then building it. It depends on how much you think your time is worth.

Which ones?  Anything beyond the phase-shifter/chorus/flanger you mentioned?  Aren't there choruses that use op-amps?  Isn't an op-amp just a "shortcut" that replaces like 20 transistors and 10 resistors with one component?  If that's the case, I don't mind making the discrete circuit to replace it with.  I *really* don't like chips.

Me thinks you have fallen prey to the "discrete is better the IC" myth. You should do some more research to understand the differences and reasons for both their exsistance. Then maybe you will also reconsider some of the aspects of your project thus far.

Andrew

[Stevo]

 
You will soon like IC's circuits... I am sure

[Connoisseur of Distortion]

i trust you don't think a flanger can be built with ten parts... or even a compressor, for that matter.

believe me, you need ICs to do a chorus or flanger. they need either a bucket brigade delay or digital delay to function. creating either out of discrete components is probably not in range of the average DIYer 

there are oilcan delays, and leslie-rotary speakers, but those are mechanical sorts of pedals (and i don't know anything about them at all)

[rch427]

Hmmm...maybe I should present my bona fides:

I bought my first electric guitar and amp in 1978 (an early-'60s Harmony Stratotone and a Silverfaced Fender); the first of at least 9 guitars that I can recall, and maybe a dozen amps.  I've had literally dozens of stompboxes; most of them vintage.  I once had close to 20 Ross effects (including the first series compressor) at the same time.  I know a bit about the way analog effects sound, and I know that I don't like the sound of digital effects, I don't care for the sound of ICs, and I definitely prefer the sound of germanium diodes and transistors, something you can't get with any op-amp, AFAIK. 

>>"It will cost you the same amount or more to build your own effects in general."<<

Oh, c'mon; no it won't.  While I might be able to get an example of of each type of effect, recently made in China out of sardine tins, used, on eBay for around $30 each, they sound like crap.  The *minimum* for a decent-sounding effect--even used--is way more than the components cost to build, say, a replica of an early fuzz box.  Especially considering I'm not putting each one in its own enclosure. 

So, I trust we can bury the cost issue and the "you don't know what things sound like" issue, OK?

Now: how 'bout back to the original question--which of the effects on my shopping list were never made back in the discrete circuit days?  What work-arounds are possible?  Any answers to these sorts of questions is greatly appreciated.

[R.G.]

Treble-booster--maybe the Dallas Rangemaster or E-H Screaming Bird/Tree

Those are your best choices.

Tremolo--Vox, Kay or ?

Use the EA Tremolo. It's the best of the easy non-IC devices.

Ring modulator--Maestro?

Use the two-transformer version of a ring modulator. All the others require ICs or matched transistor arrays, which is the same thing.

Octave generator--Roger Mayer Octavia?

Or the Tycho Octavia.

Chorus

There are no effects circuits for chorus that don't involve ICs. It may be possible to build these from discretes, but no effects ever did. Possibly you could do something with two or more tape decks. Nothing in a stomp box.

Compressor

I don't know of any pedal format ones that have no ICs. There are studio tube style things, no pedals that I know of.

Bass booster

Vox Treble/Bass Booster, EH Hog's Foot

Sustainer

See compressor, above.

Attack/Decay and/or Auto-wah / envelope follower

These aren't the same thing, you know.
There was a Popular Electronics article on a discrete attack delay in the late 60's. Don't know of any commercial article.

Flanger

No flangers without either BBD ICs or two tape recorders in a studio.

Phase shifter

Univibe or RT18.

Echo (not tape loop-based)

speaker and microphone in a BIG room, or a plate echo. Not exactly pedals.

Just out of curiousity - can you reliably hear when sound has been through an IC as opposed to all discretes? Or just don't like ICs on general principles?

[R.G.]

I forgot one thing  - most of the early effects that were more complicated than fuzzes used gain circuits composed of two or three DC-coupled transistors that they used as gain blocks just like opamps. Does that count as an IC? Same kind of operation, high gain feedback amplifier.

[The Tone God]

The *minimum* for a decent-sounding effect--even used--is way more than the components cost to build, say, a replica of an early fuzz box.  Especially considering I'm not putting each one in its own enclosure.

So, I trust we can bury the cost issue and the "you don't know what things sound like" issue, OK?

Sigh. I mentioned nothing about the cost of parts. Using part costs as your metric for the value of an effect is literial thinking. I talked about your time and how much that is worth. If your time is worth little to nothing to you then in some cases go right ahead and DIY.

As for your other statements, well that says alot about your understanding. I already suggested a course of action so I do not need to comment.

Now: how 'bout back to the original question--which of the effects on my shopping list were never made back in the discrete circuit days?  What work-arounds are possible?  Any answers to these sorts of questions is greatly appreciated.

From your list above I see right off the bat most delay based effects like flangers and echos use ICs be it analog or digital. Can you do it with discreets ? Yes but you will have to deal with thousands of parts just to emulate a single IC let alone any other ICs need (companders, timers, etc.) and the rest of the connective circuitry. Wouldn't is suck if you built a delay out of discreet parts only to find out it doesn't sound that special compared to a ICs or store bought unit or worse yet that it doesn't work ? Try debugging that baby (see "value of your time" reference above). Hmm...maybe there is a reason for ICs ? Nah.

Andrew

[octafish]

You do need to get over the dislike of ICs. I was the same, until I built an orange squeezer. That one converted me. Such a sweet compressor. ICs are your friend. The Maestro Ringmod for example is awesome because it uses an IC rather than a passive ring of diodes.
I gotta agree with my Tone God re: cost. I'd put at least a $50 per hour value on my time, assembly, debugging, painting etc sure start to add up then.

[toneman]

compressor/sustainer with no ICs??

Try the Roland Sustain or the SupaSustain...same thing.
Uses optos, but no ICs.

I really liked the original Roland Sustain.

Without an OTA IC, the only ways are opto or FET.

staysustained
tone

[trjones1]

I gotta agree with my Tone God re: cost. I'd put at least a $50 per hour value on my time, assembly, debugging, painting etc sure start to add up then.

Not to mention aggravation and frustration, which can drain you even after you stop working on the project.  With something as big as what you're proposing you can count on A LOT of time on debugging and general existential angst as you start to rethink whether it might have been better just to work overtime and buy the damn things instead.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but there are a lot of factors to take into consideration beyond $.02 resistors and $.11 capacitors.

[rch427]

Thanks, RG for all of the good advice.  

Maybe I didn't make it clear but, since I'm most interested in the *sound* produced in the mid-to-late '60s, I won't care as much about something not being possible to make, if it wasn't even being used back then.  

Yes, I know that A/D/S/R isn't the same as an auto wah, but I don't know which might've been used back then.  I'm also thinking of making the Jawari, so I can approximate a sitar (yes, I realize that's not "authentic").  I think it's like an attack/decay circuit with clipping, and I know it's all discrete.  

I don't have that much knowledge about the specifics of effects development.  I know some of the more obvious stuff, like some of Hendrix' gear, but I don't know, for example, who invented the first solid-state compressor, or when.  That subject is interesting to me, but I've never seen a book on the history of effects, that would explain it to me.  Does such a book exist?  

As for chips--I just don't like 'em.  They have their place in utilitarian things, but I they don't fit into my aesthetic.  I can *sometimes* tell the difference in sound between discrete and chip, although I've been fooled more than a few times.  Regardless, I don't like their rather stupid, anonymous appearance or their inscrutible function.  They're no more romantic than a new vacuum cleaner.  If I am happy to accept the limitations of using cheap, 40 year-old guitars and amps, why would I want to throw ICs into the mix?

Regarding multiple transistors used for gain blocks--is it really that much more convenient/economial to use an op-amp to replace just 3 or 4 transistors?  I'm willing to accept an old transistor's limitations and a certain amount of extra trouble and even expense (although I doubt it'll be that much more), for going with the transistors.

How 'bout everyone stop trying to sell me on chips, OK?  I think I made it clear that I don't want to use them.  I'm well aware that any new Japanese car can blow the doors off my '63 Dart GT, and any new Japanese scooter can beat my '65 Ducati.  Any new, Korean-made guitar is probably a "better" guitar than my 40-year-old Masonite Danelectros.  Any new high-end computer synth is "better" than any old Moog that has to be retuned every time you go to use it.  So what?  Not everything about vehicles or traveling or guitars or synths or anything else has to be reduced to cold facts about convenience or performance.  I want it old-fashioned, and I'm happy with that situation.  I can't get something exactly like what I asked for without resorting to using chips?  I can live without it.

Oh--and I actually *like* doing small electronic projects (or 15 of 'em in a row), so I'm not interested in factoring in the time I'll spend doing it.  It's a hobby, not a job that I expect $50 an hour from!  As for my patience--I think I mentioned that I just recapped an entire flippin' combo organ.  If I can desolder 292 caps and replace them, as well as doing countless other repairs on that one project--I think I'm up to this new project, thanks.

[SonicVI]

I wonder what an all germanium flanger sounds like?    Don't forget the carbon comp resistors and use nothing but sprague and mallory caps.

[Hal]

do it with no solid states.

jk

look at the second "project forum" - the discrete opamp replacer.  That should make lotsa stuff (orange squeezer) slightly more possible...

[wampcat1]

...

Thanks, RG for all of the good advice.

I don't have that much knowledge about the specifics of effects development.  I know some of the more obvious stuff, like some of Hendrix' gear, but I don't know, for example, who invented the first solid-state compressor, or when.  That subject is interesting to me, but I've never seen a book on the history of effects, that would explain it to me.  Does such a book exist?   

*****************Yes, http://www.smallbearelec.com/Search.bok?category=Books+And+Publications