early discrete circuit effects

[A.S.P.]

information lost...

[octafish]

Looking back at the original post. And the timeline. Keeping with the technology available I'd recommend, the following.

Fuzz, meh too many to pick from a nice PNP FuzzFace is probably the way to go though. For an earlier sound I'd recoment a second cabinet and an icepick or razor blades.  (build it)

Treble booster, RMaster, what else is there?  (build it)

Tremolo, ahhh tube amp forget the solid state stuff. (build it?)

(Vibrato seems to be missing here, and of course the answer is a Stratocaster)

Ring mod, yep a ring mondulator, is what you want, you can find a carrier lfo somewhere i'm sure. Not surer how this fits into the vintage sound you talking about though. (build it)

Octave generator - tychobrae has a better fuzz that the RM but the RM sounds better idf you replace the fuzz section with a FF. Soooo tychobrae if your a purist or home cook something if you want the best sound. (build it)

Overdriver, pffff turn up your guitar/amp louder. Okay, okay maybe some sort of full range boost. Modding the caps on the Rmaster should do it.

Chorus, you'll need a big room

Compressor, fuzz face, the lightbulb thing, (build it)

Parametric EQ, what the controls on your amp aren't enough? Nah not authentic.

Bass booster, hogs foot, but thats really just for a bass guitar. Oh I know heavier strings.

Sustainer, Les Paul. Pref with PAFs or P-90's

Attack/decay, record it backwards

Autowah, nah you'll have to use your feet.

Flanger, two reel to reel tape recorders running at the same speed with identical tapse then press one with your finger to retard it a little.

Phase shifter, hmmm I think the phase 45 sounds the nicest but its got a chip. No opinion on this one.

Echo (not tape based) who you kidding?

Noise gate, for an authentic vintage sound you probably want a hiss enhancer.

Spring reverb tank, ummm a spring reverb tank? Thats mechanical look for old combo organs etc they sometimes have pretty decent tanks in them.

Seroisly most people in the time period you are looking at didn't use any effects that didn't come in their amp. I still think you should lighten up on the ICphobia but thats not what you want to hear. I think some things are easily done look for the (build it)s. But somethings just don't seem justified. ie I can't imagine too many people used a passive ring mod w/ their guitar in the sixties, but all stompbox versions are IC based. Unless someone can correct me?

[R.G.]

Echo (not tape based) who you kidding?

Once I did a thumbnail design for a tube based digital delay.

Lemme see...

it takes one duotriode per flipflop, 16 flops per word, and, say, 16K words for a reasonable delay. That's 16*16*1024 = 262144 duotriodes, not counting glue logic.

Assume we could do the glue for 10% of the memory array, so we have, in rough numbers, 288,000 duotriodes. That's 6.3*0.3 = 1.89W of heater power per triode, and assuming B+ of 250V and 1ma of plate current, 0.25W of active current per flop, so the power is 288,000*(1.89+0.25) = 616.3kWatt. Power supply efficiency is probably less than 80%, but let's be generous, so AC power input to the machine is 770kW.

If you can air condition for a net efficiency of 5, you'd spend 154kW to keep it cool, and we're up to 924kW, or just a hair under a megawatt.

And we haven't even touched on the issue of roadies to carry and set it up. 

[Connoisseur of Distortion]

Echo (not tape based) who you kidding?

Once I did a thumbnail design for a tube based digital delay.

Lemme see...

it takes one duotriode per flipflop, 16 flops per word, and, say, 16K words for a reasonable delay. That's 16*16*1024 = 262144 duotriodes, not counting glue logic.

Assume we could do the glue for 10% of the memory array, so we have, in rough numbers, 288,000 duotriodes. That's 6.3*0.3 = 1.89W of heater power per triode, and assuming B+ of 250V and 1ma of plate current, 0.25W of active current per flop, so the power is 288,000*(1.89+0.25) = 616.3kWatt. Power supply efficiency is probably less than 80%, but let's be generous, so AC power input to the machine is 770kW.

If you can air condition for a net efficiency of 5, you'd spend 154kW to keep it cool, and we're up to 924kW, or just a hair under a megawatt.

And we haven't even touched on the issue of roadies to carry and set it up. 

schem plz








couldn't resist...

[Steben]

Maybe a phaser with 12 to 24 shift stages (can be done I guess) can emulate flanging. If you have more stages, maybe chorussing. You should damp the sweep range then (I mean not from 0 to 2160 degrees, but 1080 to 2160 degrees). You dont need an opamp ic for phasing. A Phase45 is feasable with a couple of trannies.

And check out the "Phozer" at www.runoffgroove.com. It has a nice simple LFO in it to use even with "real" phasers.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

R.G., if you want an audio selay using technology pre BBD, one possibility is the mercury delay line (there was quite a few yards of this in a 1950s radar set I saw a few years ago, it was used to subtract ground clutter from the next sweep).
Or, my favorite, the williamson cathode ray tube memory!
third last pic on this page: http://www.ii.uib.no/~wagner/OtherTopicsdir/EarlyDays.htm

Then again, there is the garden hose http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2005/august/content/content4.html

[casey]

you guys are seeming to forget about oil can delays.  or telrays...

www.telray.com
morley had some as well.
and there are people who are making their own oil can delays ....

http://www.geocities.com/tel_ray/EDLschem.html
http://www.geocities.com/tel_ray/adnechoschem.html

nothing is impossible.... and it's totally reasonable with enough know how to make a tape based delay. 

[H.Manback]

Echo (not tape based) who you kidding?

Once I did a thumbnail design for a tube based digital delay.

Lemme see...

it takes one duotriode per flipflop, 16 flops per word, and, say, 16K words for a reasonable delay. That's 16*16*1024 = 262144 duotriodes, not counting glue logic.

Assume we could do the glue for 10% of the memory array, so we have, in rough numbers, 288,000 duotriodes. That's 6.3*0.3 = 1.89W of heater power per triode, and assuming B+ of 250V and 1ma of plate current, 0.25W of active current per flop, so the power is 288,000*(1.89+0.25) = 616.3kWatt. Power supply efficiency is probably less than 80%, but let's be generous, so AC power input to the machine is 770kW.

If you can air condition for a net efficiency of 5, you'd spend 154kW to keep it cool, and we're up to 924kW, or just a hair under a megawatt.

And we haven't even touched on the issue of roadies to carry and set it up. 

Hmm, that sounds a lot like a tube based computer with more memory than they ever had back in the day

By the way, on that scale you would also encounter the problems our grandfathers had with the first computers. Tubes break . On a scale like that you could be pretty sure a tube would blow every few seconds or so

[R.G.]

Tubes break. On a scale like that you could be pretty sure a tube would blow every few seconds or so

Yeah, I thought about doing a quick calculation of the failure rate but decided against it because I thought it probably isn't outrageous enough to match the number of tubes and power numbers. Lemme see if I can do that...

If you power cycle it too much, a small signal duotriode tube will last, on average about 50K to 100K power on hours (measured life data in logic use, Annals of the History of Computers special issue on SAGE). So with 288K tubes, a tube will fail, on average, every 50Khr/288Ktubes = 0.1736 hours, or about about every ten minutes. That's moderately outrageous, but not hugely so.

However, if you use four more tubes per word to do an error correction code, you'll have to have two failures in the same word to get an audible failure. I'd have to get out the statistics textbooks to get the numbers right, but since you have 8K words of 20 bits to get failures in and you have to have two failures in the same word to get an audible failure, the time between uncorrectable audible failures goes up by several orders of magnitude. Of course, that's just putting maintenance off and you have to replace all the single failure tubes when you get a double failure, but it gives you much longer run times, up in to days without a hard failure.

[puretube]

well, Telray became Morley...
Lubow (of Telray fame), however wasn`t the first "mechanical BBD" user...

you`d have to go back to 1927...

[Gilles C]

In the late sisties, my dream was to get a tape Echolette, or an Echochord to go with my no-effect 100W tube amp.

I also wanted to build a Fuzz or Preamp (not sure), based on a circuit I saw in one of the electronics mags that was popular at that time. The format was smaller than todays's mags and easier to take with you. Funny how things change... Computers gets smaller, mags get larger!!!

Anyway, that article was based on a miniature triode. I wished I still had this article. 1969?

Then came Craig Anderton. That's when I really started to build something.

My first home sound system... a mono 10 W tube amp I built myself.

I can't believe I use ucontrollers these days to control effects with 4053s and FETs, etc... And I like Boss effects with their FET switching circuits.

I also find it funny that people say that older technology is no good anymore... and that the same people still only use True Bypass.

Btw, this is just a funny thing I noticed, not a rant... 

Gilles

[puretube]

soon come: The Tube-Switcher



(no joke!)

[The Tone God]

What would happen if someone built a tube version 4053/4066. True tube bypass. Is it truely all tube ? Is it true bypass ? Will the tube(s) make up for the non-true bypass-ness of it ? That would screw the heads of many a guitarists...not like that is saying much.

Andrew

[gez]

Yeah, but what does tube switching glitch sound like?  Does it have rounder corners?? 

[puretube]

sur-name: "Smooth Operator"...

[Gilles C]

I like it. 

What I had in mind (and began to use) was a standard preamp (Fet/Mosfet/transistor) that would be switchable.

A switchable tube preamp would be... well... heu... smooth!

Very old fashioned.

As Peter Cornish said: " a friendishly clever pre amp that has the same characteristics as the input of a tube amp " etc...

Gilles

[rch427]

Sorry about the long delay in getting back to this topic; it's been a hectic week. 

Thanks to everyone for continuing to offer suggestions, and especially to those of you who were so enthusiastic with your encouragement.  To catch up with a couple of questions:

Marc-- yes, part of my pleasure from this contraption will be in feeling the connection with the way things were done in the past. 

Steben-- yes, I know the Jawari was designed just a couple of years ago, and I think I mentioned that I realized it wasn't a truly "vintage" effect.  But I can't justify the price of a Jerry Jones sitar, and I can't find an old Danelectro baby sitar in my price range.  The Jawari IS, however, 100% discrete and entirely within the technology (and aesthetic) of the target era.

Joe Kramer--the combo organ now sounds pretty good, but I don't think any of my guitar amps are really suiting it.  I'm going to have to look into a dedicated amp for it.  But at least it stays in tune, and it doesn't smoke anymore!

PenPen-- thanks for the advice about reverse-engineering op-amps; I may end up doing that with one or more of the more complex circuits.

Lovekraft0-- I don't necessarily subscribe to the "if it's old, it must be good!" philosophy.  I subscribe to the "if it's old, *I'll probably like it*" philosophy.

Octafish-- yeah, I know that most of the guitarists in the mid-late '60s didn't have much to work with, but it wasn't for lack of wanting new gadgetry.  Ever hear The United States of America's record from 1968?  The ring modulator work on it is brilliant.  And many of the early prog guitarists used anything they could get their hands on.  Brian Wilson was a serious gearhead, and would've used all of these gadgets and more.  I just want to play around in an alternate history, using the same technology in new ways.

Anyway, after poring over hundreds of schematics, I think I’ve finally got my all-in-one effect unit pared down to a “short” list:

Overdrive: Sola Sound Tone Bender Mk. II

Attack/decay: this one http://members.shaw.ca/roma/attack.html

Bass booster: Electro-Harmonix Hog’s Foot (or Mole)

Treble booster: Electro-Harmonix Screaming Bird

Passive ring modulator: 2-transformer passive-type.  What would happen if I made a simple, tunable tone generator to provide the second input, and tuned it to the song's fundamental?

Pseudo ring-modulator: J D Sleep’s modification of the Dan Armstrong Green Ringer

Octave generator: on Octafish's recommendation, the modded Roger Meyer

Sustain: this modified Roland unit http://members.shaw.ca/roma/sustain.html

Parametric EQ: this one http://www.mitedu.freeserve.co.uk/Circuits/Audio/t-ctrl.htm (the "tone" controls on my amps are a joke)

Tremolo: either the Electronics Australia one or the "Twin-T Oscillator" here: http://members.shaw.ca/roma/vibrato.html

Reverb: Accutronics spring reverb with discrete transducers circuit.  I've got a spare tank, ready to go.

Headphone amp: having a heck of a time finding a discrete circuit for one of these!  Any leads?

Noise gate: in lieu of being able to find an actual guitar effect that does this with a discrete circuit, I’m thinking of building this audio circuit from Philips, from the late-‘60s http://freespace.virgin.net/ljmayes.mal/comp/philips.htm .  If I'm feeling *really* ambitious.

Auto-wah: I’m wondering about combining an optoelectronic wah with a line-signal-driven lamp.  My theory is this: instead of the intensity of the light falling on the photocell being varied by the foot pedal, the audio signal itself would vary the light intensity relative to the signal's strength, thus causing the “wah” effect to fluctuate.  Has anyone else done this already?  Any reason why it couldn’t work?

I just might take Steben's suggestion and make that "Phozer" too!

Echo: I've decided to omit this project, as I just bought an old Univox tape echo unit that'll work well enough.

I wonder if it would be fun to put a pot at the power-in for some of these effects, to be able to simulate the "dying battery effect".  Any thoughts?

I'd kind of like to make a 1 or 2 tube overdrive unit, but haven't been able to find a schematic.

So, I've ended up with 12 or so circuits; all of which will be given true bypass switches.  Here's what I have in mind for the enclosure: I have a bunch of old Zero-Haliburton aluminum cases.  I think I'll take one that's about 15" x 20" by about 9" deep, and turn it into the enclosure for the effects.  Eventually, I'll make some legs for it, so I can have it straddling my amp, and be able to operate it with my hands, while sitting on my stool and playing. 

Here's what it looks like now:

...and here's what I have in mind for the larger half:

I'll make an inner wooden frame that will horizontally divide the lower (larger) part of the case into 3 bays.  The bay configuration will hold the effects as modules, and will allow flexibility and expansion.  Some of the more complex effects will take up two module-widths, but I think I can keep most of them down to one. 

Each effect will be built onto standard 1/8" thick tagboard or perfboard, with two pieces meeting perpendicularly, and attached to two adjascent sides of a piece of 1/2" birch ply.  Affixed to the top of the ply will be a sheet of 14-ga aluminum, which will be the effect's face-plate.  There's a sketch here, to give you an idea:

Bear in mind that you're looking at the underside of one module.  And pay no attention to the "circuit"; it's nonsense--just there to give a sense of scale and construction.

Built into the bottom of the main enclosure will be that Accutronics spring reverb tank, a 120vAC-to-9vDC power supply, a small DC fan (probably a computer fan), and a grounding point. 

So--there you have it: a self-contained effects unit that's flexible and easily modifiable, that I can put the lid on and securely latch, for transport and protection.  A pretty ambitious project, but not any more difficult than lot of other projects I've undertaken.  I should be able to complete one module every few weeks, so as to have it all done in under a year. 

I'd be curious to hear anyone's opinion, so long as it doesn't involve me chucking this in for a new, digital effects box! 

[Steben]

rch427,

You mention "overdrive" with the Tone Bender MkII. The MkII is the most aggressive vintage fuzz known even in the tonebender arsenal. Just picking maybe I know, but "Fuzz" is the right word here. I was afraid you might be hoping to get another sound?

For a gentle overdrive, try tubes indeed or try the fameous !discrete! soft compression opamp of Joe in a tube screamer circuit.

And besides: "digital" is a way more easy enemy here than "IC".  Except for the CMOS logic chips, that are "abused" in analog operation. That is a nice thing to do also. 

And for my quote tag line: You are allowed to break rules!

[A.S.P.]

information lost...

[col]

For a book on the history of effects units try "Stompbox, a history of guitar fuzzes, flangers, phasers, echoes& wahs" by Art Thompson published by Millar Freeman Books. Pub price $24.95. This is available in some UK clearance bookshops for between £5 and £7. They have it in Chorley and I bought mine from Liverpool. This book is excellent with interviews with the makers and designers of all your favourite circuits (well some of mine anyway!)