WTF?! Line 6 Tonecore series surprise! (UPDATE)

[Mr.Huge]

Giving it all up takes the fun out of it... I can't make it too easy.
-Mr. Huge

[tommy.genes]

Oh great. Now we all have to start looking for the Easter Eggs in our Tone Core pedals... 

-- T. G. --

[Mark Hammer]

Giving it all up takes the fun out of it... I can't make it too easy.
-Mr. Huge

Oh you dirty dog!!  Finally unplugged from trying out an Otto Filter in a stereo dock into two amps.  Why the heck did you even bother to release it in a mono dock?

For those not quite so blessed with docks and modules, I will summarize.  The Otto Filter has the usual sensitivity control of an envelope controlled filter, and the resonance/peak control found in some commercial pedals of that category.  It also has a variable range/tune, up/down sweep, and 3 filter types: bandpass, lowpass, and "talking filter".  In the talking filter mode, there appear to be two concurrent counter sweeps.  When used in a stereo dock, the filter seems to move across amps as the one output sweeps down and the other sweeps up.  That feels like it oversimplifies the filter mode in stereo, but that's what it sounded like at first.  What I found kinda cool was setting one amp up for clean and the other up for barking distortion.  Whack a chord and the transition between amps goes from clean to dirty at the same time as the wah moves between amps.  Very nice, Jeorge.  Much more than what I had taken it for at first.  If you had a hand in this, take some credit.  Otherwise give my best, and deepest respect, to Angelo.

(Once again, Sean, think STEREO.)

[moosapotamus]

So, how is the noise gate in the Echo Park supposed to behave?

I confirmed that mine is v1.2 firmware. But, can't really notice much of a difference with it on or off, except...

The noise gate did (apparently) come on while I was swapping some other pedals in my effects chain without powering everything down. I know, my bad. But, after I finished swapping out those other pedals and had everything properly reconnected, I got practically no sound at all through my effects chain. After trying several different things like plugging directly into my amp to confirm that that was not the problem, I remembered that I had turned the Echo Park's noise gate on. So, I turned it off and that was it... problem solved.

So, what was going on? Why would the noise gate come on and stay on like that? Is it possible to (secretly, somehow) adjust how the noise gate behaves, sensitivity, release, etc...? Did I maybe, inadvertently, do something to some other secret setting that caused the noise gate to stay engaged? Kinda curious...

~ Charlie

[Mr.Huge]

give my best, and deepest respect, to Angelo.

Thank Angelo and Ross for that...

As for the noise gat... if you have it set "ON" and your Echo PArk has trails on as well... the noise gate will be on too. Switch to trails off (with the noise gate still set to on) and the noise gate will only be on when the delay is on.  To explain... When trails mode is on the DSP is not bypassed... so the noise gate stays on.

-Mr. Huge

[moosapotamus]

Thanks, Mr. H!
I understand your description and it makes sense. I guess I don't quite understand why it would be useful to have a noise gate stay engaged (muting the output) until you physically turn it off, as I described above. The gates I've used tend to open back up when you put a signal through them. But, whatever... IMO, the EP is the best most awesomest delay pedal available at any price. So, if my feeble mind can't fully grasp the noise gate's functionality, I'm still in love even with it disabled.

Thanks, again!
~ Charlie

[Dave_B]

If you can bear the thought of using only one at a time, [snip]

Hmmm.... after looking at the video and seeing the very normal looking edge connector, what's to keep a person from buying a few modules and Cornishing them into a box?

[Peter Snowberg]

Hmmm.... after looking at the video and seeing the very normal looking edge connector, what's to keep a person from buying a few modules and Cornishing them into a box?

The module is only the control panel.

You can mount a bunch of dashboards on a piece of plywood, but it won't make a car that moves.

[Mark Hammer]

after looking at the video and seeing the very normal looking edge connector, what's to keep a person from buying a few modules and Cornishing them into a box?

...the need to have a distinct DSP board for every module you want to use at a time.  Those little plastic modules contain MAYBE 5% of the circuitry involved in each pedal.  A very critical 5% to be sure. but waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy less than you'd need to produce sound.

[Dave_B]

If something looks too good to be true...

Thanks guys.  Just the thought that this might be possible was making me very unproductive at work. 

[Mark Hammer]

Well, we wouldn't want you to get too productive, now, would we?

In principle*** it would be possible to have one dock and 11 modules (or however many we end up with when the smoke clears) sitting in some special rack, and digitally enable/disable modules so that whichever one you want could be selected to be valid at the moment.  Of course, the time and energy required to produce such a system would be about 5 or 6 times as much as buying acouple of extra docks to be able to run at least 4 of the 11 at any time.

(*** = and, lo, monkeys shall soar mightily from mine nether-regions!!)

[PharaohAmps]

The only real problem I see is the pricing.  Unless I can buy a dock and a module for the same as a complete pedal, I'll just buy the whole pedal.  By the time I've swapped out the module and messed around with it, I think I would rather just spend the extra bucks and get the whole pedal.

The price I saw for the Echo Park module was somewhere around $99.  I bought mine (used) for $115 complete.  The only people that I can think will benefit from this are the guys who buy a mono or stereo pedal for cheap and then drop in a different module.  I know I can get a pedal that uses a mono dock (Crunchtone, maybe?) for cheap, then I could just drop in any old module I wanted - but would it be cheaper than just buying the pedal I wanted?  I dunno.

Matt Farrow

[Doug_H]

The only real problem I see is the pricing.  Unless I can buy a dock and a module for the same as a complete pedal, I'll just buy the whole pedal.  By the time I've swapped out the module and messed around with it, I think I would rather just spend the extra bucks and get the whole pedal.

I agree. I don't really see an advantage to going this route. I think it is more useful for Line6 and/or potential 3rd party developers than it is for consumers, "coolness factor" aside. I'll probably just keep buying the pedals as a whole.

Doug

[Mark Hammer]

This is precisely why I'm thinking this is paving the way for an expanded line that might include 3rd party modules or more outlandish "special-interest" modules from Jeorge, Angelo, and Ross themselves.  In other words, the virtue of being able to buy docks separately from modules really only starts to emerge when there are far more modules available than you'd want to use at any given time.  Your reasoning for simply buying the whole damn Echo Park is flawless.  If they came out with a low-bit resampler module that made you think "I can see where I could use that once in a while, but jeez, $120?  I dunno. I don't really need it THAT much.", then there is obviously an advantage to being able to peddle it for $50 as a module you plug in once in a while.  The deal is that, within limits, cheapness breeds acquisitiveness.

You may or may not remember that line of really interesting digital effects that Alesis had (Philtre, Bitrman, Phaze, etc., some of them are displayed at modezero.com).  It appeared to die a horrible death as a product line, but Musician's Friend had absolutely no trouble whatsoever getting rid of them when the price came way down.  I haven't heard them, so this is obviously an argument centredaround things other than tone, but my guess is that their death was because, as interesting as they were, there was no way people were going to spend that kind of money on something they weren't sure they would use often.  Once it became the same price as a used DOD pedal, hey, EVERYONE could find a use for them.

So, while you find little advantage in the modular thing at the moment, there is great potential in it to provide products that remain viable by virtue of being cheap (hence attractive and feasible) to acquire.

[SeanCostello]

You may or may not remember that line of really interesting digital effects that Alesis had (Philtre, Bitrman, Phaze, etc., some of them are displayed at modezero.com). 

A BIG advantage of the Tone Core stuff over the Alesis stuff: The Alesis effects were some weird table top thing, while the Tone Core is a super robust medal stomp box. Which would you rather use on stage? Which would you rather use in hand-to-hand combat? Which would you feel comfortable with using in hand-to-hand combat, and THEN using on stage?

The robustness of the Tone Core stuff is very appealing to me. If some of the functionality of what I use on my Mac (in Supercollider, MAX/MSP, Logic plugins, etc.) could be transfered to some compact pedals that I could use in a performance situation, I would be VERY happy. My iBook just died, so I don't have much trust in the hardiness of computers. My guitar and amps have been going since the late 1970's, and a well-made stompbox can do the same, while a computer seems to last a few years at most, even when babied.

Sean Costello

[A.S.P.]

from stompbox to PC and back

[Peter Snowberg]

I have a few of those A**sis boxes and they sit on a shelf gathering dust.

The cases are thin plastic, the on/off switch is meant for hand operation, they have fairly high noise from cheap opamps, minimalist design, and poor packaging that places the host CPU right next to signal lines, and the LFOs.... well... let's say that the LFO shapes just don't cut it for me. They do triangle waves really well however.

The overall tone from the boxes I have are what you could describe as 'poor'.

Construction was obviously engineered around lowest possible cost. The boards are double sided, but not with plated throughs. 

One thing that was neat about them was the ability to chain them using DB-9 connectors in the sides. It was a nice idea, but I've heard way too much clicking and glitching when using them in this mode.

If DSP effects boxes were watches, the A**sis units would be corner drug-store cheapies and the ToneCores would be low end Rolexes.

Which would you rather use on stage? Which would you rather use in hand-to-hand combat? Which would you feel comfortable with using in hand-to-hand combat, and THEN using on stage?

Very well put.


Now they just need a version with magnesium cases to lighten things up a bit.

[roseblood11]

There are some factory authorized mods to the base unit to improve power supply filtering and lessen noise....  I thought Keeley was doing them but I could not find a link to it on his site.  I'll check into it further...

regards, Jack

Information PLEASE!!!  


...does anyone have a schematic or service manual for the Tonecore docks? Couldn't find any. Most other Line6 stuff can be found at elektrotanya.com.

[tommy.genes]

There is a user's guide and a hardware guide with schematics...

TCDDK Hardware Guide.pdf

TCDDK Users Guide.pdf

-- T. G. --