From Russia with Love!

[jmusser]

I recently aquired sove old Soviet "flying saucer" PNP germaniums off Ebay, from Lithuania. I got home a little early from work yesterday, so I decided to give them a whirl in a Sola Sound 3 Knob Tone Bender. I was very surprised that it worked right off the bat. For one thing, the pin outs are odd on the Russian germaniums. They are collector "K", emmiter "3" (sort of), and base "b" with a line across the top. The collector goes to the bottom of the case. This thing was also my first positive ground effect too. First, I tried the GT309Bs (60-180 hfe) in all three positions, and then, I tried GT309As (20-70 hfe) in Q1 and Q2 positions. I'm not sure which ones I like best. The 309Bs have quite a bit of gain, and the 309As have less, and are a little more mellow. With germaniums, I never expected this effect to be so nasty! Except for the lack of infinite sustain, I would compare it in a lot of ways to the Whisker Biscuit. It can be real mellow and "facey" sounding, or has absolutely nasty distortion. The Fuzz adjustment puts an edge on the fuzz, but the fuzz tone never goes away. The Tone goes from mellow "Muff" sounding to something like a Sawsall going through roofing tin! Of course, this is on the neck pick up, with guitar tone controls rolled off. I really like the grind and crunch this thing has on the bridge pick up. The guitar volume needs to be at no less than 7, and I prefer maxed all the time, or you'll start getting intermodulation distortion in the back ground. I still haven't settled on what transistors I'll use in there, but I don't think I'd want anything with higher gain. I haven't checked the hfe on these. I'm just going by ear. I'm not sure that you can actually get the real wooly sound with a 3 transistor circuit. It may just be too many gain stages. The Easy Drive that I just used the OC140 NPN in, has a huge amount of wool, and gives more of what I consider the "Germanium" tone. This is a great circuit, and has a bunch of different tones and textures. It's more variable than my Si MkII, but is not light years better. It's just different and more variable.

[MartyMart]

Yup, the germanium world is a strange place indeed !
It so much depends on the circuit/bias/hfe/leakage/tone/roll off caps.... etc etc
I've had some fantastic results and some quite poor results even with most of the
variables looking "right" !
If you have an OC140 left, build a "RangeBlaster" but make it a bit more "full range"
using perhaps 0.047 in/out caps
That's a GREAT sounding circuit, also use a trimpot for Q1 ( there's only one Q ! )
a 10k or 20k should do

Marty.

[phaeton]

Russian....

but are they hawt? 

[jmusser]

I don't know if there hot or not. I guess they could be, since the guy sent them in the same lead lined coffee can that the weapons grade plutonium was in. I will eventually set me up an R.G. tester to check hfe and leakage on individual components. I may as well know for sure if the hfe ranges that are elluded to actually DO make a difference.

[dadude]

I would check for leakage. Your hfe's are off if you don't. I've tried those GT series to good affect. They very in leakage but you can get them relatively brand new for and for cheap. I'm sure there's a Rus'ski around here that can tell you all about them. They my still even be making them. Hell they may even be the magical source for all those NOS NKT-275's that keep coming up! Har, Har, Har.
My guess is there is an almost limitless supply of those things over there and cheap. I've seen dates all over the place. If I remember from the 60's all the way up to the 90's (like I said they still may be making them). I've seen those guys up on eBay selling them. You can get them for cheaper than that if you go to a parts miner out of the block.

[jrc4558]

Collector - K - Коллектор
Emitter - Э - Эмиттер
Base - Б - База

[phaeton]

Collector - K - Коллектор
Emitter - Э - Эмиттер
Base - Б - База

Wow... you can almost read that from an English perspective.  I bet this case is a coincidence tho

[Ivana]

Привет! 
Я сам весьма люблю все эти винтажные германиевые примочки - бустеры, фузз-фэйсы, тонебендеры....  И достаточно немало пересобирал их и перепробовал разные советские германиевые транзисторы. И сейчас я думаю, что на звуке весьма сильно сказывается ТЕХНОЛОГИЯ ИЗГОТОВЛЕНИЯ! ГТ3ХХ - это ДИФФУЗИОНННЫЕ ВЧ транзисторы! У них ток утечки порядка 10-30 мКа!!! Это гораздо меньше чем требуемые < 300 мКа, но на звук они мне понравились меньше СПЛАВНЫХ НЧ типа МП20-26, МП35-42 и т.п... Больше всего мне понравились ГТ402!  Кстати, они заявлены как аналоги АС128! 

[dadude]

Привет! 
Я сам весьма люблю все эти винтажные германиевые примочки - бустеры, фузз-фэйсы, тонебендеры....  И достаточно немало пересобирал их и перепробовал разные советские германиевые транзисторы. И сейчас я думаю, что на звуке весьма сильно сказывается ТЕХНОЛОГИЯ ИЗГОТОВЛЕНИЯ! ГТ3ХХ - это ДИФФУЗИОНННЫЕ ВЧ транзисторы! У них ток утечки порядка 10-30 мКа!!! Это гораздо меньше чем требуемые < 300 мКа, но на звук они мне понравились меньше СПЛАВНЫХ НЧ типа МП20-26, МП35-42 и т.п... Больше всего мне понравились ГТ402!  Кстати, они заявлены как аналоги АС128! 

I agree?

Ha, Ha!

Yes the GT402's are great. They do sound like the AC128's and they have better tolerances. The GT404's are the NPN version like the AC127 so you can use a negative ground. I have found that most are right on the money in terms of hfe 70-130 with low leakage and they are super cheap. If you find the right part miner you can get hundreds for pennies (=$.01 USD). Better yet send a couple bottles of Vodka and you might get a few thousand! Ha, Ha 

[Peter Snowberg]

I recently bought some selenium diodes off ebay from a guy in Bulgaria. They're marked 5ГЕ32Aф or maybe 5ГЕ32AФ with a 1989 date code and a K marking the cathode.

Upon receipt, I tossed one on my Fluke to check the Vf, but I didn't get a reading.

These are cylinders and not plate style rectifiers. I assumed that they might be stacks with a higher Vf than the meter would go for and they were probably medium power/high voltage devices because of the body dimensions and lead sizes. I grabbed a 9V (tested at 9.32V no-load) and the first resistor I saw which was a 1K. I put the meter on voltage, pressed the probes on the diode leads, and connected the resistor, diode, and battery in series.

I never saw a stable reading on the meter. It looked like it started at 1.4V but it floated more and more and finally it suddenly read 9.32V.  The diodes seems to have been fried by less than 8mA while the leads are the same diameter as 5W resistors. I can't for the life of me remember which direction it floated either, but it might have been down toward a short circuit before it went open.

Has anybody played with or even seen these things in an application?

Thanks!

[bioroids]

Don't know about the selenium diodes (are they any good for soft clipping??)

Have anyone heard of russian MP20A Ge trannies?

Luck

Miguel

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Selenium rectifiers usually consist of a number of discs (each has the rectifying material on one dside of it) stacked in series, because the breakdown voltage is quite low.
WARNING: selenium is poisonous. I can remember the garlic smell as I disassembled selenium rectifiers as a child


http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/POISO017.HTML

[amz-fx]

I recently aquired sove old Soviet "flying saucer" PNP germaniums off Ebay, from Lithuania. I got home a little early from work yesterday, so I decided to give them a whirl in a Sola Sound 3 Knob Tone Bender

I bought some of the same trannys and found them to be a fair bargain.

regards, Jack

[phaeton]

Привет!   
Я сам весьма люблю все эти винтажные германиевые примочки - бустеры, фузз-фэйсы, тонебендеры....  icon_smile И достаточно немало пересобирал их и перепробовал разные советские германиевые транзисторы. И сейчас я думаю, что на звуке весьма сильно сказывается ТЕХНОЛОГИЯ ИЗГОТОВЛЕНИЯ! ГТ3ХХ - это ДИФФУЗИОНННЫЕ ВЧ транзисторы! У них ток утечки порядка 10-30 мКа!!! Это гораздо меньше чем требуемые < 300 мКа, но на звук они мне понравились меньше СПЛАВНЫХ НЧ типа МП20-26, МП35-42 и т.п... Больше всего мне понравились ГТ402!  icon_smile Кстати, они заявлены как аналоги АС128! 

greetings back at you!

I haven't tried as many Soviet transistors as you have, but I will agree that the manufacturing process and attention to detail is key.  I've heard stories about the consistency of transistors fro Russia, but probably like anything else, there's always some 'fun' in sorting parts, especially the vintage ones as you say.

Though, you kinda lost me on the whole "lotion" thing



Oh, btw... if either of you folks are Russian, hook me up with some of that awesome Russian folk music.  Can't understand what they're singing, but that stuff is so dark, so serious, so beautifully terse it makes my eyes well up.  True story.

[jmusser]

I guessed at the pin outs, and the guy I got them from confirmed it for me. When I brought up our letters for the Russian translation, it gave me a whole group of words for just one letter, so, I knew that wasn't going to get me anywhere. I had guessed correctly though. Seleneum rectifiers, if I remember right, used to be in old TV power supplies. Some had 2" square wafers, and were 3" to 8" long. If I also remember right, they bite pretty good if the power supply is on too! I had always figured that Soviet transistors would be very top shelf stuff. After all, they were good enough to get Sputnik in orbit!

[jmusser]

I forgot to ask in my last note, what is supposed to be good hfe's for the 3 Knob Tone Bender? I have read a couple posts on it, but got a lot of mixed information. I believe Pete Moore, said he used some like 70 for Q1, 90 for Q2, and 120 for Q3 in his MkII. Fuzz Central says you don't even need germs for Q1 and Q2, since Q3 does the actual fuzzing. For me, I have always kind of felt that the maybe the germ tone would be amplified earlier on, just like noise is. R.G.s Fuzz face article says to use something between 70 and 110 being pretty good for that tone, and that some people like the same hfe for both, or a higher hfe for Q2. So, I'm pretty confused about the whole thing. As far as the Fuzz Face, Vox Tone Bender, etc., using 2 transistors, I do plan to test hfe's to find out if this is true. It almost looks like it defeats the purpose of the softer germanium tone, to use anymore than two transistors, unless the first two were set up as a Darlington pair to compensate for very low hfe germs. Is my thinking on the right track here?

[dadude]

I haven't tried as many Soviet transistors as you have, but I will agree that the manufacturing process and attention to detail is key.  I've heard stories about the consistency of transistors fro Russia, but probably like anything else, there's always some 'fun' in sorting parts, especially the vintage ones as you say.

I guess just like with anything you’re going to find bad apples. I know that a lot of [US/Euro/Jap] germanium transistors that have been made over the years will not make great sounding effects pedals do to a lot of reasons. I'm sure that there are tons of Russian transistors that fit in that category as well. But I have found a positive consistency among the GT series types with a very low level of throw always. And at $10 or $20 USD for a couple hundred or so that's not a bad deal.

[jrc4558]

Hey Ivana!
Я не уверен что знаком с такими тонкостями технологии как ты, но...
В, например, стандартном fuzz-face в принципе мне нравится звук 2sb175/135 больше чем даже nkt275. Главное точно подогнать сопротивление на коллекторе первого транзюка, и в принципе звучать будет, даже очень неплохо.
Пробовал на них-же differential distortion. Опять таки - главное рассчитывать схему.
А какие ты рекомендовал-ы из советских для фуззов?
Пиши!

[Ivana]

Привет!
Слегка про технологию (да и вообще про ядреную теорию) http://dssp.petrsu.ru/book/chapter5/part1.shtml (только не верьте картинке ПНП и НПН!  )
А насчет что нравится или не нравится по звучанию - так это как говорится, на вкус и цвет... И вся дискуссия будет изобиловать такими аморфными понятиями как "недостаточно выпуклая середина", "рыхлый низ" и т.п.  Просто банально взять схему, намакетить её на перфборде и крутить переменники-режимы... Я в своих конструкциях чаще всего оставляю ГТ402И. У них приемлемый диапазон Ку и утечки... Кстати, есть у меня пара конструкций на МОЩНЫХ германиевых транзюках (сейчас модели уже не помню, типа П302 или подобные). Только там существенно больше ток покоя и меньше коллекторные резюки...
По поводу Ку - он плавает от тока базы при котором измеряется (что в принципе так и должно быть  ). Я уже как-то на вашем старом форуме писал про это и даже приаттачивал файл с избранными результатами моих тестов. Сейчас я не нашел куда здесь приаттачить файл... На Геофексе у Кина предлагается мерять "истинный Ку" при токе базы в 4 мКа. А у Смаллбеара в его баре-бонес методе - при токе базы в 9 мКа. Я модифицировал его баре-бонес метод и поставил галетник с резюками, что позволяет мне мерять Ку при токах базы от 4 до 15 мКа. В типичном случае это выражается в изменении Ку в пределах 20-30%! 

4,4   6,5   8,6   10,8   12,9   14,8 - мКа:

106   112   119   124   129   132
73   76   80   83   87   89
105   110   115   119   122   126
77   81   85   89   92   95
72   76   80   84   87   90
50   52   54   56   58   59
123   130   138   144   151   155
131   138   146   152   158   162

Ну, и так далее... (это несколько строчек из Экселевского файла). Поэтому на ТОЧНОМ значении Ку имхо заморачиваться не стоит, к тому же если учеть что ток утечки удваивается при увеличении температуры на каждые 10 градусов. Как правильно написано на Геофексе - надо брать примерно подходящий транзистор, а точные значения все равно определены при данной температуре и токе базы...

[jrc4558]

Теперь надо придумать где в Канаде пробить пару-тройку ГТ402И. Может знаешь?