Vox Clyde McCoy Wah, build report,... Any ideas for Hendrix wah tone?

[Paul Marossy]

Fulltone says on his site that Hendrix used  a script/signature clyde wah on E.L., i always thought he used a picture model.

Interesting. Here's a picture of Jimi with his wah, but I can't make out if it's a Clyde McCoy picture or signature model...

[formerMember1]

yeah, personally i think it is a Picture wah, cuz the bottom plate doesn't look anything like a script bottom plate.  If you got to the top of that link, and click bottom, for the picture and signature/script wahs, you will see that only could be a picture wah.  Unless it is tape on the bottom or something, which i doubt.

BUT, you know Jimi, it could have been a picture wah bottom plate, off a picture wah, he might have changed batteries in the wahs at the same time or something, and the bottom plate could have gotten mixed up with another wah.  BUt, i don't think that would happen because for one, he is in the studio, which means he would want to beable to look at the wah and know which wah it is, cuz he might like it for a certain song etc...

[Paul Marossy]

It looks like a Clyde McCoy picture wa, but then again, it kind of looks like tape... 

[leonhendrix]

It is the picture version with tape on.

I dont know why people say a specific version is better,  both versions varied alot with components, both versions probably used 5 different types of transistor, different brands of pot and inductor etc.  To me they're the same pedal with different labeling.

leon   

[formerMember1]

It looks like a Clyde McCoy picture wa, but then again, it kind of looks like tape...

that's becuase it is both Paul. LOL!! 

It is the picture version with tape on.

Leon,

The picture wah and signature wah you have.  DO they both have the same R values?  What about the Q resitor?  Same type Caps?

How do the two paritcular pic and script wahs you have sound in comparison to each other?

What about the Crybaby compared to them?

thanks 

[formerMember1]

Anybody:

For authentic puposes, i want to ground the wah pot to a screw mounted in the inside of the wah, like the old wahs did. 

like this wah http://homepages.onsnet.nu/~121204/wah/v846_prin.jpg

I have a screw, but what kind of washer would i use under the screw that will take solder, to solder the wire to?  Or do i solder the wire directly to the screw head?

thanks

[petemoore]

  Or do i solder the wire directly to the screw head?

    I've tried soldering to screws, they don't solder.
  Get a copper eyelet washer, like they use for grounding amp chassis, you can solder to that, and if you sand the paint off the aluminum where you're wanting conduction, the 'lockwasher teeth' will make a great connection.
  I have made chassis connectors to fit under a screw, I loop solid core wire around a rod that is just larger than the mount screw [so it'll go through the hoop] both ends tightly wrapped looks like the neck of a coathanger, then I flatted the solid core wire hoop part for wider footprint/contact between screw and chassis ...between a hammer 'n cold chisel and an anvil...done...works great, not exactly 'authentic'.
  Part of the reason I included this is because I'm not certain if there are any chemical reactions I don't know about when 'mating' two different types of metals to conduct by contact/pressure.

[formerMember1]

cool thanks pete! 

[1wahfreak]

All this wah talk has me crawling to help out if possible. Would it help anybody to have some clips of various wahs. I still have a number of them that I could record and post if you wanted. However, given the subjectiveness of it all + amp, guitar, playing, wah components and all the other variables it may not be worth anything. But it may give you a range of some of what's out there. I have a Voodoo Chile backing track that i could play over so you could hear it in context also.

Here's what I could post:

Teese PW
Late 60's BG 1 with a new Fulltone pot
Jen Double sound (with film can)
Just about every Jen wah made with Fasels
Kern tube wah
Top Gear (I think this one is inductorless)
Various vox with TDK's
Some newer dunlops
Shei-ne campanion
An old Schaller
A Roland Wah Beat (the same wah that's in the Double Beat)
even an old WEM that has a super short sweep. It might not be bad with differnt pot.

Some other various stuff too but you get the picture....

Sorry, I got rid of the older Vox's because I had others that sounded better and people were paying big money for them so I sold off a bunch. FWIW, the older Vox's were always way to trebily for my tatses compared to some of the other ones I had like the BG-1. When I played them side by side, I always gravitated to the ones with more body. I had a early cry baby (like the old Italian King) with a film can that just pierced my ears so bad I couldn't see keeping it. Trust me, I wouldn't have gotten rid of any MOJO stuff if it really sounded better. Maybe it's coincidence but I don't have any of those old collectable Vox's.

[formerMember1]

Wow you are a wah freak. 

That is very nice of you to chime in!! I would definitely  be interested in hearing a teese Picture wah, Vox TDK, Jen w/fasel over  a voodoo child backing track if possible.  That seems like a lot of trouble though.

It seems i am getting closer and closer to what i want, so that is a good thing, but i still have a ways to go. 

[Paul Marossy]

It is the picture version with tape on.

That explains a few things.

I dont know why people say a specific version is better,  both versions varied alot with components, both versions probably used 5 different types of transistor, different brands of pot and inductor etc.  To me they're the same pedal with different labeling.

AFAIK, they are the same pedal. I guess people like to split hairs over what caps were used, what inductor was used, etc. ?

that's becuase it is both Paul. LOL!!

Hey! I was right. 

[leonhendrix]

I like the old vox wahs but they are overpriced, ive had bad ones but most suit my tastes, I would'nt dismiss them as just Mojo pedals. I perfer the v846 to the clydes, from the ones ive heard.

my 67 crybaby is my fav out of the three more brighter than the clydes and very clear vocally, it has small hole halo with the 100k Q res all of the three wahs have the ICAR pot and tropical fish caps, the transistors are  SES131DT2

the signature clyde is a bit thin sounding but still sounds great, this clyde has the circuit covered up with a layer of epoxy type stuff but you can still see the large halo with the 33k res, the BC109b's and the tropical fish caps.

I dont like the sweep on the picture version but the pot is nearly 40 years old, its abit dull sounding but better than alot of other wahs ive had this one has SGSIW98021650 transistors and has a 480ohm res instead of 470ohm.

leon

[formerMember1]

I used pliers to bend the leads of the tropical fish caps in ward, then bent them outward but not at the same bend, to make it work with my pad spacing, well i guess the fish caps are tough afterall, they didn't break at all, or even come close.

Now as far as the tone, they are WAY better than the avx boxed metal film caps.  THey sound more vintagey and warmer.  The highs are way sweeter, by far.  I also tried some modern mylar polyester film caps from radio shack, and the tropical fish caps are better.  I don't know why so many say that they aren't any different.  I suppose the value might have  drifted or something, or might be a little off, i forgot to measure them, i'll do that tomorrow.

I am still waiting on my other caps/parts from mouser to try.

Bottome line is i think the tropical fish caps sound better than the radio shack and avx boxed metal films, but i think the caps from mouser will sound the same as the fish or better or different.  Time will tell, and i will post results when i get them.

right now the wah sounds way better than when i started, i swapped the 4.7uf for a 15uf, and the bc109b's for NOS bc108C's of about near 410hfe/gain, and also swapped avx for the fish caps.  THe wah is getting closer to vintage Vox CLyde Jimi Hendrix tone, WAY better than before by a  long shot.

[markphaser]

The film Metal can inductor is way different because of the film can around the inductor does something to the flux giving more Q and bandwidth in a different area

[formerMember1]

hey,..

I tried many many many many caps from mouser,..about every .22uf and .01uf cap i could find,..mylar, polystyrene,polypropylene, polypropylene film, film foilm mixed film, metalized film, metalized polyester,.byt xicon, orange drops, vishay, roederstien, WIMA, avx, and many others,..

My conclusioin is they sound different and some sound alike.  Some really really trebly(orangedrops) etc,..

THe polystyrene are the best for .01uf.  Wet Warm, good vocal/quack,...
The .22ufs are best as fish caps for vintage tone.  THe xicon greenie's are very very close,..but the fish caps are more vintage/hollow/warm sounding,.the greenies are close but are way more bassy/thick/dull,...

I tried many "mods" and left the sweep and resistor values the same.

I tried keeping the 68k input resistor at 68k instead of lowering it to 47k for truebypass, and lowering the 470ohm bass resistor to 270ohm or 300 ohm and that is a good tone too,..but i prefer the 68k lowered to 47k right at the moment,..

The 4.7uf is best at a 10uf,..i tried a 4.0uf and it was too weak ,..a 10uf is fantasticly good.  I got the idea from reading Teese's post advising to use a 10uf electro on this forum,..

I tried different caps in the output buffer but the avx boxed are the best for that part of the wah,..Wimas and other caps were thin/sterile, and the greenies were too dull there,..

I know i will be hated for this but here goes,..
I bought a bunch of carbon comps to try,..i swapped only one resistor out (470ohm) for a 470ohm carbon comp and there was a big difference,..like the change when going to the fish caps,..and that was only one resistor swap!!  I am gonna rebuild it with carbon comps and make an update,...

To me, there is much a difference in carbon comps then cap swapping,..

ANd it wasn't the value, cuz i bought like 4 of each value and picked the 470ohm CC that was almost exact to the metal film,...
It is true though that the CC's are a pain,..all four sound different,..their values are not as tolerant as metal films,...

I respect the posts by members of this forum, but carbon comps do sound different,..but maybe only ina  wah type circuit,...
all i know is they are worth the extra money to me,..

when i rebuild board, i will post a sound clip,..i will record a sound clip before swapping out metal films too, and let your ears decide  for yourself

most of the above was found out from mucho research, and from collaborating with a member here "lacto", even though he seems to be a "newbie", he has gotten my wah to sound great,..way better then before,...

I will update later in the week, when i replace with carbon comps.  (<<please no hate mail 

PS:i tried changing the sweep cap by .001uf, and that makes a huge difference alone,..i didn't like it though,...
I am gonna build another one in a vox enclosure and compare the tone to this one,...the vox enclosure should be better,...

one other thing is when replacing .01uf caps, if you put a certain cap in sweep and a different one in the input it will sound one way, then if you swap there places, it will sound different again,..then if you use the same type cap in both places it will sound different again,..many many combonations for various tones,...again pointed out to me by lacto.

[Paul Marossy]

Interesting stuff, formerMember1. My 70s Italian wah had a 2.2uF cap in it when I got it. It still wah-ed OK, though. I'm going to try a 10uF in it sometime in the near future, though.

On the carbon comps, according to RG, in a low voltage circuit like this all you're going to get is more hiss. I do know that my 80s Dunlop CryBaby uses carbon comps and the sound does seem to have the most character to it in spite of that "sucky TDK 5013" inductor being in it. I'm not sure how the carbon comps factor in, though...

[no one ever]

Interesting stuff, formerMember1. My 70s Italian wah had a 2.2uF cap in it when I got it. It still wah-ed OK, though. I'm going to try a 10uF in it sometime in the near future, though.

On the carbon comps, according to RG, in a low voltage circuit like this all you're going to get is more hiss. I do know that my 80s Dunlop CryBaby uses carbon comps and the sound does seem to have the most character to it in spite of that "sucky TDK 5013" inductor being in it. I'm not sure how the carbon comps factor in, though...

maybe the carbon comps are so far off their spec'd resistance that they hit a sweet spot... try measuring the the resistance of those cc's and compare that to their specs?

[formerMember1]

Paul, i sent out the 4.0uf's and the 10ufs to ya on saturday,...2 of each,...try them and let me know what you think,..
the 4.0uf has leads like a fish cap, so you won't be able to use sockets,...


yeah that is what i did,..i got like 4 of all the values and measured them until i got one that was closest to the 470ohm or whatever value,...
there is a nice difference in tone,..and that is only one resistor swap!!

Only changing that one made it more, vintagy, warmer, smoother to me,...

Like i said,..I highly respect opinions here, but i am still amazed by the different tone from the resistor,..

out of 5 470ohms they measured this
475ohms
468ohms
458ohms
457ohms,
the last one i just dropped somewhere,.. 

the metalfilm was 468ohms, so it wasn't the value,...and actually it is nice to have CC's cuz you could get values that you normally can't becuaes of the tolerance,..so maybe a 430ohm is too low for you bass resistor but a 470ohm 5%tolerance CC might actually be 458ohms, which is inbetween,..

Let me replace all resistors and i will update this week,..
if you try it you won't believe the better tone,...

the CC's are  xicon 5%, they are more money then carbon films and metal films,..but to me WELL worth it for better tone,..now that is if you want vintage warm 60's tone,..Slash might like metal films for 80's metal,...

[no one ever]

...clips of before/after CC swap?

[formerMember1]

yeah i will,..i have to do that this week, and then rebuild wah, then record again,...

i am kinda busy with the holiday, but i will try by the weekend,...plus i have to figure out my 4 track digital recorder,..

but i will do it!