How do you people make such good layouts?

[R.G.]

In running arbitrary connections of long skinny things to one another, the most compact way to do it is usually to stack the long skinny things with their main axes aligned, and then to connect them by running connections at right angles to the axes. Doing this blocks connections between parts less.

In double sided boards, it's always good practice to define a preferred direction for each layer and run all traces only in the preferred direction on that layer, going through a via to the other layer if you have to change directions, rather than running a diagonal trace. A diagonal trace eats up space that could be used for other traces in the preferred direction. I believe topological proofs of this concept exist, but I can't put my finger on one now.

Stripboard is an example of strict adherence to preferred direction traces - the're 100% iron clad one direction. The parts actually supply the other direction on the other side with varying lead length. That's also a good example of why ironclad adherence to preferred direction is bad - it forces you into nonoptimal placement of components, and the resulting board is larger than it might be if you intelligently broke preferred direction routing. "Intelligently" means that you've almost completed routing and you know that no other traces will be blocked by that diagonal, so you can feel free.

In some multilayer boards, some inner layers have been preferred-diagonal. I never did that, but I know it was done.

I swear, I swear that I'll get more books printed... sorry guys.

[bwanasonic]

I personally find Eagle to be an uneccessarily cryptic,and unituitive PITA. Since my background is more of a graphics background, I prefer the elementary drawing program combined with the elementary connectivity check that is ExpressPCB. For comparison purposes, here is my rudimentary (and untested) Blacfire layout:



A good lesson in layout is to compare as many available versions of a circuit you can find.

Kerry M

[robbiemcm]

I had a play around with ExpressPCB, it certainly is much better than MS-Paint, which is better than drawing it by hand. I never got an answer back for whether I should avoid going through the legs of other components, so I just went ahead and did that anyway. This is the result:



If you feel the urge to tell me I did something wrong/stupid, please do.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

paul, can you make some suggestions on how to force it to do what you want?  i just played around with the route parameters for a while and could not figure out how to suppress diagonal (45 degree) traces. 

Sorry, I have no idea. I don't have any objection to the 45 deg. But, you can put a partial track in, and then (if it has partly gone to the right place) the auto function will (usually) put a straight line where needed. I know my limitations, I know people who are much better at PCB than I am. Plus, where mistakes are unforgiving, is when the board has to go into a premade box, plus  if there are 'snap-in' pots, if you are a millimeter out, they won't snap.

[Mike Burgundy]

Robbie - how are you going to solder these onto the board? a lot of components try to take up the same space, which is impossible.
A little bit might or might not be a problem, but that board will result in a big 3D knot of components which is not reliable at all.
Also, wider tracks are a good idea.
Other than that - good start!

[Dirk_Hendrik]

Ok, I'll be the one to say it...

After reading the past few posts I (we) just have to see your circuits moandj's.

I've seen, and used FP's tonepad patterns, and now after hearing your critique in
this thread, well it begs the question ... lets see your yours?

I'd like to see this better style you speak of, so ante up baby.

That was me saying that. Furthermore I have never said anything about "better" in general. Better for me. Better for the way I work etc etc.




b.t.w., the result http://www.dirk-hendrik.com/images/wobclone.jpg

[amz-fx]

I use Eagle but I like fat pads and wide traces so I have a custom symbol library that I created to make my pc boards. Also, when my board house makes the pcbs, I have the pads put on both the top and bottom side and plated through...  this adds lots of extra strength and makes for really positive connections.

Even after lots of practice I don't squeeze all of the components into the smallest possible space...  I had rather size the board as large as will fit in the box that I'm using and then put the components on it.  A little extra room is good if you have fat fingers like me! 

regards, Jack

[Riff Ron]

robbiemcm,  You have a crossed wire on your layout.  The middle leg of your volume pot trace crosses another trace on the same layer.  This is not a great layout.  Too cramped.  Also, ExpressPCB charges a flat rate for three 3.8" x 2.5" boards.  Try to squeeze as many smaller circuits on the 3.8x2.5 as possible since you are paying for it.

Regards, Riff Ron

[pswoods]

i use my layouts for pad-per-hole perfboard and prefer to avoid diagonal directions.

that is fascinating for what i'm trying to do right now. does this work out pretty well for you? how about things like the stairstep-looking trace from q2 to c2 - would that be a jumper?

i'm just now getting addicted to tinkering after a long courtship. i am working on an orange squeezer. had it on a breadboard and tinkered for about a week, finally got it how I want. i tried to copy the Tonepad layout directly onto a PPH perfboard. disaster. after that went up in smoke, i tried a Runoff Groove style graphical layout, but I'm waiting for my new batch of parts to try it:

that's the best i could do in a good 2 hours of headscratching. there is one jumper not shown. i have learned the basics of ExpressPCB in anticipation of reaching that state of proficiency; do you think it is a good tool for perfboard layout, or am i better off with plain graphics?

[robbiemcm]

Sorry that I didn't really explain the layout very well. I'll say what I probably should have said..



I have no intention of paying for this to be made, or printing it out as it is. I currently draw my circuit boards with one of those pens as I don't know where to get the print stuff, so the traces will also come out thicker. Also the components that cross eachother, they're always capacitors that can sit above them, I took that into consideration. However if I'm going to make this I'll probably just stretch it out a tiny bit more and forget the crossing over. And I only drew that big thick volume pot line in to show you what those pads were for, I'll just be soldering some wire on to the board when I actually make it.

[Paul Marossy]

I personally find Eagle to be an uneccessarily cryptic,and unituitive PITA

Me, too. That's why I have really only used it once!

[Dragonfly]

ive used express pcb quite a bit...its easy, and by using express pcb/expreess schematic combined, you have full connectability checking....

[jrem]

One problem with Express PCB is you can only use it to buy boards from Express, or that is my understanding. 

Board houses generally accept Gerber and Excellon files for route and drill, and that is what the commercial grade development packages create (which Eagle adheres to).  Kind of like G or M code for CNC stuff.

Ultimately it doesn't really matter what one uses to create the artwork . . .   anyone rip open 70's era Peavey stuff ?  (Oh, come on now and admit you have some Peavey stuff . .  .)   those boards look like they were hand drawn . . .

[R.G.]

Easytrax is a PITA to get set up, but it does all you need and generates Gerber and Excellon files for you.

I understand that protel has made Autotrax public domain now, free for download. It's a native windows app and doesn't have the strange interface things that Easytrax does.

Traxxmaker, if you can find a reasonably priced copy is also very, very good for this kind of stuff.

All of these are not board-house dependent. You can send the boards anywhere.

[gaussmarkov]

i use my layouts for pad-per-hole perfboard and prefer to avoid diagonal directions.

that is fascinating for what i'm trying to do right now. does this work out pretty well for you? how about things like the stairstep-looking trace from q2 to c2 - would that be a jumper?

the stairstep-looking trace is on the bottom of the board like everything else.  i don't actually put the hookup wire in the same pattern when i solder up the perfboard.  it's just that by sticking to the "no diagonals" design rule i can be sure that there will be plenty of room to place each hookup wire between pads that are connected to other things.  when i put in something like this



i have found that things are a little too tight for my building skill level.  i run the risk of having the diagonal wire touch the other two pads.  so when i force my design to look like this



then i have plenty of room to place the actual hookup wire something like this



this is what works for me.  i have considered moving to perfboard without pads to avoid this problem.  because otherwise there is plenty of space for diagonal connections like the one above. 

[gaussmarkov]

For comparison purposes, here is my rudimentary (and untested) Blacfire layout ...
A good lesson in layout is to compare as many available versions of a circuit you can find.
Kerry M

very nice.  yours looks a lot less busy than mine.   

[Dragonfly]

One problem with Express PCB is you can only use it to buy boards from Express, or that is my understanding. 

incorrect....

actually, you can use the layout software, design the pcb, press "print screen" on your computer and paste it into a paint file. then you just resize it and you can use the artwork to make your own boards...



andy

[pswoods]

ExpressPCB appeals to me because it is an all-in-one, end-to-end solution. I'm just trying to get started, and the ease seems worth the drawbacks at this point. I learned the basics of both the schematic and layout parts in one sitting. When I get to the point where my head isn't swimming just to build something simple, then I'll start looking at more grown-up stuff.

Just curious: has anyone costed out DIY transfer boards vs. ExpressPCB? If you were to fit two copies per board with ExpressPCB and actually use all six, would you still come out behind? How much do you save per hour of your time?

gaussmarkov: I see what you mean. I think I will try ExpressPCB for my next perfboard layout; that makes a lot of sense. Have you figured out a measurement for how much space you need under the board to clear the hookups? I ask b/c in the stuff I've built so far, I mount the board over the pots in tall standoffs, and there isn't a whole lot of room.

[Dave_B]

I personally find Eagle to be an uneccessarily cryptic,and unituitive PITA

Me, too. That's why I have really only used it once!

I'm not sure what you guys' issues were, but I could never get the parts to stay connected.  Then I learned to use nets instead of wires.  Once I got that figured out, I liked it a lot more.  When I figured out how to make the Ground net larger than the others, I was pretty happy with it.  Untested sample:

[The Tone God]

Eagle is availible to me in from the Unix port but I still don't use it. Some reasons are reasons. Mostly that the interface is pretty stinky even for techincal software which has always been traditonaly difficult for the average user.

Earlier I used EasyTrax under DOS which you can get pretty efficiant with once you get the keyboard commands learned. Then I ran Protel loading the EasyTrax file and doing finals changes and printing.

Now I use PCB which is like EasyTrax but with the addtional functionality that comes with a GUI. Once again you can become quite proficciant once you learn the keyboard short cuts.

Now about 45s. Its typically bad to use all 90s. There are a long list of technical reasons for and against the use 45s. Usually they are used in digital and high speed stuff. You can get away without them for audio but I genereal make use of 45s. It is not for saving distance or copper or to make it pretty.

Andrew