"Tone Suck", Back EMF and "The Redeemer"

[CS Jones]

Interesting thread on another site.
A guy asks the innocent question of avoiding tone suck.
Someone mentions this
http://www.creationaudiolabs.com/redeemer.html
A couple of guys step up and give the basic meat and potatoes answer. Kind of like the one most of us would have given had we answered, give or take a few points. Add a little cautionary note on husksterisms. End of story.
Not so.

Check it out if you have time.

http://thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?s=5a21333d3222a85bd6819fbdce01d2fc&threadid=112159&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

Several things here interest me (leaving aside, for the moment, the stupidly presumptuous name of the product and the swarming, aggressive and arrogant spam technique).

The name dropping of Visual Sound.
The meat and potatoes guys are MVPs on this site AFAIK, just trying to spread the word.

It's hard for me to tell exactly just what this amazing new, never before seen, heard, smelled, touched or tasted product is.  As far as I can tell, other than sales BS e.g. "testimonials", name dropping, referencing performance and production "masters", patronizing rhetoric and this dude named "Skip"; it alleviates the supposed negative impact of back EMF on your gear's tone.

The buck and a quarter is burning a hole in my pocket. Should I give it to these guys who so obviously care deeply about my 2 bit, bar band playing, weekend warrior tone? So much so that they'll take the time away from Vai and Johnson to help me to see the light - or better, to hear THE TONE. Do I need "redemption"?

(Can I get an "Amen" brother)

[cd]

Nah, Clay, not worth it.  I thought about throwing up all kinds of numbers to refute that sort of BS but I don't particularly care for it anymore (and hey, this thread should be in the Lounge!!!! )

Smile politely and rest safe in your knowledge, since fools will always part with their $.  Hard earned or not, that's how you learn.  Ever see a cat drink hot water twice?  Nah

[CS Jones]

Dave,
I wouldn't give these guys a dime for the simple fact that the hipper-than-thou sales pitch/spam makes me sick to my stomach. "in crowd" crap.

I was wondering though (and they don't say anything other than sales speak) what it's claiming to do. Back EMF is somewhat of a 2 way street isn't it. The same same self induction which results in the backward opposing current which is the result of the growing forward current magnetic field and works to oppose the forward flow is the same effect which will actually aid the current flow as the magnetic field collapses. The end result being that any change is opposed. If their thingy pushes the current stronger the back emf works harder to oppose it and if they reduce it the collapsing field works to push it forward again.

What it does, they don't say. I'm supposed to take their word for it. And Vai's. And "Skip's".

Not asking for design details here. Don't really care. Just a few generalizations on what it's supposed to be doing scientifically.

[R.G.]

I can't tell what's inside other than that it's probably a discrete circuit from the comment about opamps and that it's likely a high input impedance buffer. It might even be a discrete part-opamp, given the specifications, and that could logically be said not to be opamp based, given the normal understanding of "opamps" in the musical community. Audio specs that good necessarily imply feedback use of some form.

One problem with our saturated-in-advertising society is that a perfectly good product won't sell well at all unless you go to great lengths to tell people how INCREDIBLY HYPER-GREAT THIS LIFESAVER REALLY IS!!! Onboard preamps have been a good idea for a long time. The problem has always been how to get people to put them into the guitar where they do a lot of good. If this is a good performing preamp, easy to get into the guitar without routing and easy to get batteries to, then it might well perform just as the guy says it does.

An onboard preamp with an input impedance of over 1M and a low output impedance to drive cables is a fundamentally good thing. In the guitar, it would display a lot of the results that are claimed. I can well believe that a true bypass would show that the guitar sounds better with than without it, as it would eliminate even the normal cable loading, and sound brighter and more present.

[Sarge]

Responding to CS Jones,

Mr. Jones, Sarge here. I'd like a few comments please. First off, thanks for your interest in the "stupidly presumtuous" Redeemer. Our response to the post by theelectic was not "swarming, aggresive, and arrogant spamming." We simply were trying to clarify a few points about the comparison. Theelectic very graciously admitted that the comparison may have been a bit steeped..and for that we are thankful. And for the name dropping...well, we will be at the NAMM show with George L's, Visual Sound, and Pedal Train. Check the NAMM site and look up booth 5721, just the facts please. As for Lionman's "name dropping"....he has done and is doing the things he says he has. Sales BS? We didn't start the thread! Patronizing rhetoric? Talking about "Skip" in a not so nice way? Let me tell you about Mr. Alex "Skip" Welti...he has a mile long history as a tech at WestLake Audio in LA. After that he was National Service Manager for Soundcraft, and now he is the Vice President of Research and Development at Creation Audio Labs.

If you really have the 2 bit, bar band , weekend warrior guitar tone...yes you need "Redemption." I'll give you that "AMEN." If the buck and a quarter is too steep for great tone, contact me via our webpage and we'll see about curing that problem.

Please everybody..try before you blast....that is all we ask!

[spudulike]

This is a DIY pedal forum. Im getting pissed off with manufacturers feeling obliged to register here and post defensively about their products.

You want to contribute something then explain the back-emf claims.

2c.

[R.G.]

Guys, let's chill out.

Sarge didn't start this. He is new at this forum, and his baby was called ugly. I've seen far worse responses from others over smaller matters. He's not familiar with the antipathy for advertising hype here, I suspect. He may not have even written the advertising himself.

Moreover, unlike a lot of advertising I see, there is some reason to believe that his product might just work well. There is some technical basis for believing that.

Don't blast the guy just because the advertising is loud and he's proud of his product. Teach him about how to approach the DIY community. He just might be a good asset to the group in the long run.

Also, try to curb your anger at manufacturers and their products - most of what gets DIY'ed is clones of manufactured products. As a group we've marked off limits zachary and his offspring, just because he talks nice to us. Mike Fuller gets raked over the coals and copied just because he doesn't. Is there any disparity there?

Talk nice, maybe even try his widget out. You just may like it.

[Doug_H]

I haven't read all the GP threads, don't have the time or interest. But I've noticed an interesting pattern with the audiophile set. They are kind of like the current healthcare industry, who defines a new acronymed "disorder" every other week- along with a new pill to fix it. Seems like a lot of these guys' primary interest is in rooting out and defining new sources of "tone problems"- ones you didn't even know existed before- and then, of course, offering the solution for a small fee.

Just seemed kind of funny to me...

Doug

[AL]

I occasionally post on that page. I signed up there just to have another place to get some valuable info. Well... there are a few knowledgeable people who hang out there but the site is most definitely NOT geared towards DIY. Although I have recieved some very useful info from some of the members and it is a far more friendly location than a lot of other forums.

Most of the posts are about the latest "hot" design - from pedals to amps. My ascertation (as I'm sure most of the people on this forum think as well) is that the lastest "hot" design is an emormous waste of money. But, that's why we are here. We have the knowledge, or at least the desire and patience, to build/design our own. The regulars at the forum in question are not, as a whole, at all interested in anything of the sort. They do, as Clay put it, "have a buck and a quarter burning a hole in my pocket" outlook. While this is a foreign concept here it is very common there - neither is a bad thing, just different.

As for the "aggressive spamming" - I think the same applies. Those techniques work well there because there is a buying population - it would be fruitless and frustrating to try that here. At that page that is a viable business option that some will use - others will choose different approaches.

Clay, I can certainly understand how that looks from here but I don't think anyone was trying to "snow" anyone over there. Maybe just a misunderstanding between two different thought processes? I also realize you have made some highly regarded pedals so I hope I'm not coming off like I'm on a high horse. This is just how I see things.

I now officially stop my "Let's all be friends" rant.

AL

[lovekraft0]

Sarge didn't start this. He is new at this forum, and his baby was called ugly.

With all due respect, I don't think that was Clay's intention at all - I think he was simply trying to "unload" the advertising copy to increase its clarity. Clay never said the baby was ugly, simply that the baby's promo pack was extremely suspicious and reeked of snake oil. I tend to agree. If that makes anybody angry, so be it - you throw your ad copy out to the public and you take your chances with the public's reactions to it.

If Sarge wants DIYers to believe that he's making something special, he's going to have to use a less mystical approach, and at least tell us what his device does in practical terms. If it's simply a great-sounding discrete buffer, that's fine - its value is in no way diminished by its function, especially if it sounds as good as the endorsers say. If it's actually an innovation, it should be patented for its protection, so disclosing at least the bare details of its operation shouldn't be a problem. I'm sure it's not easy to break into an already oversaturated market, but this "it's so complicated you couldn't possibly understand..., let's just say it's magic!" approach tends to irritate a lot of us, and that shill site (tonedonkeys.com) is really kinda hincky any way you look at it.

Notice that I never said anything about the sound of the unit - it may be the greatest boon to guitarists since the humbucker! I have no idea, and considering the late night cable TV spray-on hair marketing being used, i doubt that I ever will. A simple explanation of what the Redeemer does might change my mind, but I seriously doubt we'll ever get one. I'd certainly like to be proved wrong on that point, though.

[soggybag]

So do you all think this is more than a strato-blaster or similar booster? Anyone care to take a stab at what might be inside? I built a strato-blaster for friend and mounted it inside his strat. It sounded pretty good. Is this something more than any of the typical buffers and boosters?

[RDV]

Could be similar to this.

RDV

[Fret Wire]

I always thought that with surface mount FET OA's, Jack Orman's Super Buffer would make a nice on-board unit.

[A.S.P.]

information lost...

[AWelti]

I've been posting to the pro audio and live sound websites for years so I know better than to spam you guys.  I'd like to clear-up the questions that have been brought up about how it works...

The Redeemer is intended to go as close to the guitar as possible â€" it’s designed to go inside the guitar.  It only draws 1.2mA and holds its specs down to 3.6V.  It still sounds acceptable even at 2V.  The prototypes ran from mid July until the first week of November; about a hundred or so playing hours on one battery.

It’s unity, flat frequency, no distortion and no noise.  So it should sound like a piece of straight wire, but it changes the sound in three ways:

First, by unloading the pick-ups the output rises slightly.  A 10K pick-up driving a 100K pedal is already knocked down almost 10% by the voltage divider effect.

Second, by lowering the O/P impedance of the guitar it overcomes cable noise and capacitance.  This comes through as a treble lift and clarity; it also allows you to roll back the volume pot without the high-end roll-off that you usually get from the RC between the pot and the cable capacitance. 

Third, (and we found this out by surprise) by eliminating the back EMF from the outside world into the pick-ups, the strings don't feel the load and they ring-out with better resolution.  On this point, the pick-ups no longer see the load of the pedals (100K), and they don't see the Xc of cable capacitance loading the highs (depends on the cable â€" my George L’s measure 30pf/ft, 20ft = 600pf; Xc = 1/(6.28 x freq x C) so at 8kHz even a good cable looks like 33K to ground).  All the pick-ups see now are the controls in your guitar and then the Redeemer with greater than 2M ohm input impedance.  The pick-ups don't have to develop much current looking at 2M ohms so the strings feel little if any counter EMF.  The output impedance of the circuit is less than 750 ohms so it can easily drive a line input for things like recording direct to pro tools.   

We have been asked about a pedal version, but even with a few feet of cable between the guitar and the Redeemer you can start to hear a difference.  You would have to use great cable (like George L’s) to preserve the benefit.  I also worry that people will forget to put the Redeemer first in the chain (as close to the guitar as possible).  If they mixed it up it wouldn’t hurt, but it also wouldn’t help much to buffer the output of an FX pedal either…   

It does less for active pick-ups in terms of my first and third points above, but you still get some benefits with the second point â€" because even with active pick-ups, you still have 25K of volume pot impedance, also active pick-ups weren’t intended to drive direct to line inputs.

If you already have a great guitar set-up the difference is more subtle, but we have given early prototypes to several session players with great set-ups for beta testing and they came back with very enthusiastic reports...

So you want to know what's inside it?  We are into the patent process - and once that's done, it will be in the public record for all to see - in the meantime all I can do is tell you what it's not.  It's not a FET, it's not an op-amp, or even a discrete op-amp with feedback, it's not a copy of anything that has been done before.  We've all been saturated, trained and brought up to think FET buffers and op-amps, so it's hard to think about designing something outside that box and I can understand the skepticism - even I was skeptical when it was still on paper - I had to triple check the wiring on the prototype the first time I tested it, because I didn't expect to get those specs and I thought it must be a mistake - but we've finished building a hundred now and the specs are consistent.

I hope you get an opportunity to try one, and then I want to hear your real feedback...  Feel free to email me with any questions.
Alex "Skip" Welti

[gez]

Good luck!

[Ed G.]

We have been asked about a pedal version, but even with a few feet of cable between the guitar and the Redeemer you can start to hear a difference.  You would have to use great cable (like George L’s) to preserve the benefit.  I also worry that people will forget to put the Redeemer first in the chain (as close to the guitar as possible).  If they mixed it up it wouldn’t hurt, but it also wouldn’t help much to buffer the output of an FX pedal either…   

Something I've thought about if I ever decided that I wanted a buffer...I'm not sure that I do...would be to stick the circuit in a small package with a clip. I remember seeing someone here build a circuit in a craftsman tape measure. You clip that puppy to your guitar strap, you connect via a very short cable, like 2' and you don't have to take apart the guitar to change the battery. Got different guitars? No problem.

[CS Jones]

Hey Skip,
Thanks for joining in and thanks for being a good sport.

No gain.
No attenuation.
No distortion.
No voltage fall off.
Making my pickups the perfect voltage source. Never degraded. Like an open circuit. Never getting "tired" since they're looking into virtually no load. All this done while eliminating whatever naturally occuring magnetic forces and counterforces inherent in all current movement which, in fact, might still be present.
Man, if this is what you've really got, more power to you. Good luck with product.

[Fret Wire]

First, so there's no mistake, you talk like a punk. Correct that...... an over-reactive punk.

Besides, you smegma are probably doing enough advertising for them by starting bash threads.  I'd love to see all the web hits those people are getting and the sales they make because of it, I'm sure they appreciate it.  The ones who bash reply are proving me right. 

Is that what you're asking people on this forum to do? You don't sound like your actually connected to the product, are you? If not, you should check with the people who are before you insult people here, then challenge them to destroy a product's rep all over the internet. This forum does carry plenty of respect on other musical forums. Is that what you asking/challenging everyone to do? I didn't think so. Don't worry, there's too much integrity here.

This was just a simple thread about a product, maybe a little doubting (as us DIY types do), and it was interesting to hear from the products developers. Sounds very interesting. If you checked  Clay's posts you'd see he's a straight shooter, no disrespect intended.

After all the questions are answered, you jump in, to the defense of nothing, and crush us all with that deeply wordy punk talk. You sound like the typical middle aged guy on music forums. You know, a Squire and cheasy amp, can't play shit, post on many forums like you can, buy a ton of gear, and still can't play shit.

Anyways, thanks for stopping over to put us in our place.

[A.S.P.]

though I don`t feel being mentioned in your reply.

(non-bashers excluded)

I`d politely ask you, "acronychal", to take back/modify those dirty words/expressions, that don`t fit in the spirit of this forum...


btw: why aren`t there commercial products/systems,
that work with phantom-powering onboard electronics
through a screened 3-wire (microphone-) cable and
stereo quarter-inch jacks/plugs?