Trying to get fuzz box to work...but its not quite there, need help

[Joecool85]

I've been working on the fuzz box listed here:
http://smallbox.zeonhost.com/projects/fface/

It didn't work right, it was ocillating between fuzz/no sound basically.  I did a little research and it looks like the polarity was wrong...so I made some modifications, following this schematic:
http://www.montagar.com/~patj/fuzzface.gif

I reveresed polarity, fixed my grounds, and turned the 2.2 cap around.  Now it works again, but still does the exact same thing where it goes in and out...Any ideas?

The only thing I'm shaking on in my mind, is when you ground...does that ground just go to the other things that need ground, or does it also connect to the negative on the power?  I have it so it connects to all the grounds, plus the neg on the 1/4" input jack.  Thanks.

[petemoore]

  I just clip DMM set to beep mode to a known ground point, then test for beeps at all other ground points.
  I run 1 wire from a metal 1/4'' jack installed in a metal box, to the board ground, which ends up as an 'all grounds' point, or 'star' grounding. The main thing is that all the ground points have continuity [are connected] only to all other Gnd's.

[Joecool85]

Does it matter how you hook up your germanium transisters?  I hooked them up left to right...figuring that the offset one was the middle...does it matter after that which one goes left and which right?

I got mine as a matched pnp fuzz from smallbearelec, and they sent me resistors too...but I used the resistors called for on the schematic even though they were slightly different...maybe I should swap in the resistors smallbear gave me?  Would too much voltage to the germanium cause this?  It seems its getting roughly 5.2 volts and on the sheet from smallbear it said 4.5 volts at the collector of Q2 from a 9 volt source.  Which part is the collector?  Is that the offset pin?

[MartyB]

IIRC, Smallbear's germaniums have the metal can tab indicating 'emitter'.  A good rule is to socket your transistors.  No heat damage risk and easily allows trying different ones/orientations.  I've only once soldered my germs in, when I knew it wouldn't change. Try both orientations.   The offset pin is 'base'.

[petemoore]

  All the Ge's I have, the middle lead is offset, so the three leads don't form a straight line coming out of the body, but the middle one is like the tip of an arrow if you 'connect the dots', drawing the bottom body of the transistor and the leads exit positions as the dots.
  The arrow tip always points toward output...I know, I cheat...there are some Q's with different pinouts.
  I generally check the Hfe with a DMM, getting a reasonable Hfe reading means I've can use the pinout marked on the DMM socket.

[Joecool85]

So...the "emitter" is that the same as the "out"?  Meaning there would be two ins and one emitter/out?  If this is the case, I'm pretty sure I did mine wrong 

[petemoore]

  The FF is a two transistor single feedback amp stage.
  The 100k resistor is the feedback loop, one end connects to the emitter of Q2, the other end to the Base of Q1.
  If you have tabs on the transistor hats, and got them from SB, they're 'probably' [I think all SB FF Q's have emitter tab, not certain] indicating the emitter.
  The emitter can be ID'd also by using a DMM's Hfe checker, trying pinouts into the DMM Hfe socket until a 'reasonable' reading for hfe [probably between 40 and 200hfe, closer to 60hfe-150hfe probably for FF though], the pinout is then indicated by the markings by the DMM hfe socket....'e' 'b' amd 'c' for emitter base, collector. This method is probably the easiest, just try pinouts until a reasonable reading shows.
  Also you can use the diode checker and look for a Ge threshold that will be between the B/E junction, and contingent of course on whether the Q tested is PNP or NPN...the arrow in the circle on the schematic...the transistors internal diode will follow the direction of the arrow marking.

[tungngruv]

First, go here:  http://www.diystompboxes.com/cnews/FAQ.html and look almost all the way down the page to find the picture of your Trannie pinout.
Petemoore wrote

If you have tabs on the transistor hats, and got them from SB, they're 'probably' [I think all SB FF Q's have emitter tab, not certain] indicating the emitter.

Yep.
You should also use his resistor or even better, a 10k trim to really dial it in. I looked at the links you provided and its pretty similar to Joe Gagans Easy Face. Look here: http://www.tungngruv.com/content/gaganlayouts.html  at the Easy Face with blend cap. That's with PNP trannies, positive ground, I think like you are trying to do. The Trannies (Q1 & Q2) are drawn in just like some Trannies I bought from Small Bear. Just ignore one of the caps coming off of the base of Q1 and that will be your input. Also, all the grounds (input jack, output jack and lug 1 of volume pot all connect to the ground on the board. Hope that helps.

[Joecool85]

This is where I'm at...and this is going by the schematic listed here: http://www.montagar.com/~patj/fuzzface.gif



The tab on Q1 and Q2 are in the same position even though you can't see Q2's tab.  Is that right?

[Joecool85]

So...I turned both Q1 and Q2 around, leaving the center where it was and swapping left and right.  Results:  Great sound, but had to crank  my amp WAY up to get decent volume.  So I know something is wrong.

[Joecool85]

The other thing I'm thinking of is that these came with resistors...

33k
680
10k
120k

And I used what was on the original schematic:
33k
470k
8.2k
100k

Would using my resistors make it quiet for some reason?

[tungngruv]

Steve should have marked Q1 and Q2 for you. I think you want the one with more gain in the Q2 position. Also, if you are getting great sound but have to crank it, somethings not quite right. If your fuzz sounds good with no sputtering, gating and stuff I think the circuits ok. But the volume should be up. Don't forget that you need to make sure the input and output jacks are grounded as well as the #1 lug of the volume pot. Also, it seems you are going in the right direction as far as trouble shooting it. Nice looking work on the board, by the way. I can't tell from the top but is the collector of Q1 going to the base of Q2? It would help if you show a pic of the bottom, also. It's also good to read RG's "Technology of the Fuzz Face" and Arons "What to do when it doesn't work"
Off the top of my head though, just make sure you triple check the resistors value's, caps orientation also now that the trannies are oriented right.

[Joecool85]

So I had it right in the picture?  Or I have it right now that I changed it?  See...before (like in the pic) the sound was not so good, but the big thing was that it cut in and out, maybe getting too much power because the resistors are smaller than what they were matched for?

He didn't write Q1/Q2 on them...so I just guessed.  Also, I guess now that I think I know which pin is the emitter and which is the collector, which goes where on the schematic?  How do you tell?  Now that I've changed it when you are looking at the top it goes collector, base, emitter on both Q1 and Q2, is that right?

[Joecool85]

Took a voltmeter to them...this is what I got

Q2 ( the symbol in the parathensis is what probe was hooked up to that pin to get a reading)
Collector (-) 5.5volts
Base (+) 7.9 volts
Emitter (+) 8.5 volts

Q1
Collector (+) 7.9volts
Base (+) 8.5 volts
Emmiter (+) 8.5volts

[tungngruv]

OK, going by this schem: http://www.montagar.com/~patj/fuzzface.gif and going by your posted picture above, you need to do the following:

-The 2.2uf is oriented wrong. Positive should be away from Q1
-Both Trannies need to be flipped to where the tabs are pointing towards the 100K resistor side of the board
-Make sure the pos side of the 22uf cap is going to ground (i can't tell by the pic) and the neg side is going to middle lug of the 1K pot
-You want the black wire from the battery clip coming off the board and the red wire going to the input jack "sleeve" tab.

All the above assume you do have PNP trannies and the schematic you posted has a positive ground for that. You are going to get it to work, just take your time and walk away for a few if you need to. I've had to do that several times.

[Joecool85]

Yeah, I actually did all that stuff a couple minutes ago oddly enough.  And you were right btw, both caps were oriented wrong  .  But it still does the same no/low volume thing.

Here are my numbers now, and a current pic:

Q2
Collector 5.5volts
Base 7.9volts
Emitter 8.0volts

Q1
Collector 7.9volts
Base 8.5volts
Emitter 8.5volts

Almost the same #s as before...and the current pic:

[tungngruv]

Can you please post a pic of the back of the board and a couple more of the front and back with all the pots, jacks etc...? I'll be getting off the web soon but I'll help if needed first thing in the morning.

[Joecool85]

K, yeah...its not pretty.  And you'll need to ignore wire color on a few of them lol.  Put let me get those for you.

**edit**
Here we go:

That is my powersupply, two 9 volts in parallel, I checked, its fine.  Middle pin is +.

[tungngruv]

It looks great. I really can't see that much though from the angles and stuff. I did some checking on my Dino Fuzz and (just so we are on the same page, Q1 is next to the 33K and the 2.2uf in your pic) my voltages were different from yours by a quite a bit. In my limited knowledge, your Q2 collector is slightly high but OK. It almost seems like you are getting all (or most) of the battery voltage accross all your trannie pins. I'm almost positive that you should be getting 0 volts off of Q1's emitter (connected to ground). I'd look in that area first and then make sure the following are right:

Pos of the 2.2uf goes to input
Neg (black) battery wire to the 470/33K junction
Q1 (next to the 2.2uf) emitter to ground
Q2 emitter and 100K junction goes to lug 3 of 1K pot
Lug 2 of 1K pot to neg 22uf
Lug 1 of 1K to ground along with pos side of 22uf
Make sure the collector of Q1 is to base of Q2
.1uf to lug 3 of 500K
Lug 2 of 500k to output
Lug 1 of 500K to ground

Also, looking at your pic, I think you may have your input and output wires (from the board) mixed up on the switch . Hard to tell though. Compare yours to this: http://www.diystompboxes.com/pedals/DPDT.gif

I'm sorry I'm not more helpfull but in my opinion, somethings up around the emitter of Q1, I'm almost positive it should be at zero volts. Also double check all the ground points on the schem and make sure you connected them on your board. Don't worry though, you will get it to work!
Also, look here to double check your board (I redrew your pic, the green wire  off of the emitter of Q1 goes under the 100k, connected):

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=8800236&uid=4033194&members=1

[Joecool85]

I didn't look at everything yet, but I did look at your pic, mine matches everything except the ground you show on the right...however, that is where it is suppose to connect to the 1k pot, not straight to a ground anyway. (according the schematic, assuming that its right)