No Clone Zone

[H S]

What's in the "no clone zone"?

Looking at previous posts I would have thought it included Tech 21 gear like the SansAmp and XXL pedals.  They're in current production, they're only 10-15 years old, and they're not clones of anything else.  Also, Tech 21 is a small maker that's made some innovative pedals.

[Jaicen_solo]

The tech 21 stuff has been in continuos production for about 25 years, but they're not selling to a mainstream market. The type of people that will buy a sansamp would never build one, they're totally different demographics. Also, nobody in their right mind would WANT to build a sansamp! Have you seen the schematic for that?!
As for no-clone, basically anything is game unless theres a good reason not to clone it. For example, people like Paul Perry and Z.Vex contribute to this community, and in return the community respects their intellectual property.
Basically though, you need to make peace with your own conscience as to wether you should clone someone elses design.
I tend to clone stuff that's either too expensive or too rare for me to ever buy. In that case, nobody's losing anything.

[Doug_H]

Don't know about Paul but in the case of Z Vex he specifically asked the forum not to post his schematics. So out of respect, people don't.

I don't think it's much more complicated than that, really.

Doug

[aron]

It's more like the "please don't post" zone. No one can stop the spread of schematics and the reverse-engineering of pedals. It's going to happen and people will build their own clones no matter what.

[puretube]

posting/distributing unwanted clones will lead to the case,
where pedals will be either better gooped/disguised in the future,
new ones will only be designed in "advanced" software-based digital technique ("Emulations"-eeeek),
or designers will definitely jump off the scene,
stop make innovative designs,
(and maybe start something fruitful like garbage-collecting,
since at least no-one will steel the garbage from them...)

[Mark Hammer]

I have to confess a certain amount of discomfort with the recent XXL postings.  I certainly have no problems with folks reverse-engineering a current item and saying "Here is the basic principle that makes pedal X different or interesting.  Is there a way such a principle can be implemented in any existing or on the horizon designs?  Not necessarily in the identical manner but in the same spirit?"  Jack Orman's AMZ article on "warp" controls is a perfect example of that. It's not about any particular pedal, but rather presents a generic principle that can be applied to a wide variety of existing or future designs in creative ways.

Easy knockoffs leave me anxious, though, I'm afraid.

[Fp-www.Tonepad.com]

Define "clone"

To me a clone is an exact copy, a replica, of whatever is being cloned.

RG Keen has contributed with many of the terms we use everyday (like RTS PCBs, for example), and he also contributed with the "work-alike" term.

I highly doubt that *any* of us can clone a pedal. We can build work-alikes, that's for sure, and most of the pedals we build are better quality than those we can buy. And of course, the emotional bond with your hand built pedals is quite difficult to get with a store bought pedal.

Fp

ps: on a more ironic note, the Rebote2 delay circuit (not pcb layout) was copied by BYOC and they sell it in their Delay kit... what about that? We ALL should know that circuits are not subject to copyright (but that the layouts and artwork is), that's the whole point of epoxy in comercial units, to help prevent discovering the circuit, because once it's done, anybody can use that circuit, (not the artwork or layout).
EDIT: The rebote2 delay circuit was designed by yours truly and it has a couple of funny things going (the 2.5 is much better), just so that I could notice if somebody was 'using' it.

[aron]

>I have to confess a certain amount of discomfort with the recent XXL postings

If you notice the XXL thread turned into a useful "improvement" thread where suggestions were made on how to improve the circuit and how to enhance it.

I really doubt much if many people will build one as the schematic is pretty involved and why would they want to when the Insanity sounds much better? 

Most working musicians simply do not have the time to build their own "clones". Even when they do, they tend to mod the heck out of it.

[phaeton]

I guess that in this respect, my interests win.

I agree with Mark Hammer-  I get the most enjoyment and satisfaction out of studying the "basic building blocks" or general techniques that could apply universally to all circuits.  Besides, there are few circuits that have any truly innovative approaches anyhow.  They're all just variations of the same set of themes.  There's only a few ways you can clip the signal, there's only a few ways to alter freq. response and so on.

It's all been done already.

However, I still get the most enjoyment out of creating my own circuits out of the "building blocks".  I've probably reinvented a lot of wheels this way, and it's not my intent to recreate something that already exists, but I'm sure it's happened.  I doubt I'll stumble across something new and exciting (and a lot of my circuits are probably total crap compared to everything else)  but I'm still having a great deal of fun.

My offtopic 2 cents.

[Fp-www.Tonepad.com]

Aron,

The improvement scenario happens for several reasons, one is that there is a LOT of room for improvement in all these circuits, the other is customizing by applying mods.

Fp

[aron]

I still get the most enjoyment out of creating my own circuits out of the "building blocks".

Time for.....

DISTORTION MAKER!!!!!

http://www.diystompboxes.com/distmaker/DistMaker.html

[Fp-www.Tonepad.com]

Once somebody is able to identify the circuit blocks that make up a pedal, they have reached an important step in the understanding of pedals and also can now start designing!

[phaeton]

I still get the most enjoyment out of creating my own circuits out of the "building blocks".

Time for.....

DISTORTION MAKER!!!!!

http://www.diystompboxes.com/distmaker/DistMaker.html

I saw an episode of Iron Chef or compatible.... they started out by hitting a gong, and then these two Asian chefs come cartwheeling out from the sides of the stage whipping around all this cutlery in true Martial Arts style.  It was like watching a cheezy 1980s Ninja movie crossed with some Jackie Chan crossed with Who Wants To Beat A Millionaire.  It culminated with them theatrically arriving at this center island bar and very rapidly chopping up a bunch of vegetables, meat, rice and things and slapping together a plate of food, then thrusting it at the camera.

That's what that made me think of.

[Mark Hammer]

>I have to confess a certain amount of discomfort with the recent XXL postings

If you notice the XXL thread turned into a useful "improvement" thread where suggestions were made on how to improve the circuit and how to enhance it.

Actually, I hadn't noticed.  In which case, I tip my toque to you.  You did the right thing.

[Fp-www.Tonepad.com]

Also, the XXL schematic has been around for a couple of years, IIRC Jeremy sent it to me a couple of months after he had posted the GT2 schematic.

[MartyMart]

RE : XXL

I intended to make a layout available from the superb schematic by J Luja, which ..... was "posted
here" some time ago .
I hope that I have not caused any "offense" and perhaps in future, I'll stick to my own designs, as
these things take up my valuable time !!.
As far as I see it, there's no difference is "reverse engineering" a "Tech 21" or any other product !


Regards,

Marty.

[Fp-www.Tonepad.com]

Marty, you did right. I don't think Mark or anybody is the least bit upset about it.

Fp

[puretube]

...has contributed with many of the terms we use everyday (like RTS PCBs, for example),

Kudos for PCB! (even "Pr*tel" uses that abbrev. now)
"unwanted clones" is the only thing I can contribute...

btw.: it happens to happen,
that a lot of  those "mods", that are being err, newly invented for commercial products,
have all been on the designer`s bench long before, but discarded with when a new product hits the market, due to economical (or other*) reasons...

[Fp-www.Tonepad.com]

Well, I didn't mean "PCB" by itself, but "RTS PCB".

Fp

[J. Luja]

probably just splitting hairs, but the original XXL was in production from 1995 to 2000, the reversed schematic was released in January, 2005. Tech21 just recently started production of a new modified version of the XXL this year.

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=29094.0

I seriously doubt tech21 is losing money due to the diy crowd, besides, they've got those dirt cheap behringer clones to worry about. I just wish someone would actually use the information and ideas to make something new.

now, if someone wants to clone my alarm clock, I've got a schematic of that too, including a nice mod to dim the display according to the ambient light level