sigh, a New Boss Mod--Questions

[idiot savant]

So, I have been working on a modification to a certain “cheap” Boss pedal to make it match the specs of a certain “expensive” Boss pedal. This is not a mod that has been done beforeby anyone apparently. I don’t want to get into any specifics, until I get my prototype up and working. I finally got my guinea pig pedal today, so tonight I’ll be working on it. I’ll probably post a tutorial if everything goes well. This got me thinking….How much can you do to a circuit before it stops being a “mod”? For example, how in depth are the ds-1 or bd-2 mods? Cut traces? Jumpers? How many overall changes?

I know there are already 12,385,296 Boss mods out there, so I have been scouring the internet to make sure that “my” mod is unique. So far, it looks like I am the only person to come up with it.

I also know that many people here (and all over the internet….Keeley, Analogman, Indyguitarist to name a few) mod Boss pedals commercially. I’m not sure if I feel comfortable knowing that if I post this, some random internet dude will be selling this mod in a few days. Do modders develop the mods themselves?  Do people really steal ideas from this forum for commercial purposes?  Is copying someone else’s mod even worthy of using the word “steal”? It seems like most mods are just a slight re-working of some other established mod.

Is it a “post it on the internet, now it’s free game” type of deal?
Do the commercial pedal modders acknowledge the mod developers?

With my severely limited knowledge I'm trying to maximize my few contributions here, because I love this place and the people here, especially the ones who have lent me a helping hand.

I apologize for my ignorance regarding the subject, I know this has been a hot topic of debate in the past, so most of you are probably already sick of hearing about Boss mods. As a matter of fact, I haven’t been even interested in modding commercial pedals until now, and this is my first attempt.


So any information, comments, suggestions, well-wishing, opinions will be much appreciated.

Thanks,
-Morgan

[Melanhead]

Hmmm ... That's a tough one. Many of Keeley's mods are floating around, some he's posted and some he's written about in pedal power. The problem is that mods are ever changing ... Who knows what version of his "DS-1 Ultra" he's doing NOW ... Anyone who really wants to steal a mod can just reverse engineer it by buying the pedal, if you have the know-how to determine what components were changed. Most here would respect your mod and not sell it themselves or claim it as their own ..... BUT there's always a risk if you post it, and you never know who's lurking

There's tons of info here on mods ( as you know ) and most of my mods are based on this info. I've posted my DS-1 and SD-1 mods because I WANT to share and couldn't have come up with them without this community. I still do my mods, and make a bit of money at it, for local guys who don't have a clue how to do it but will gladly share with anyone capable as I'm not about to quit my day job.

Most commercial modders come up witth this stuff the same way you and I would ... Looking at a schematic, Trial and error, and most importantly EARS! ... Have a good mod, get it into the "right player's" hands and everyone wants one. That's the bussiness side ...

So .... hmmmm .... good luck, have fun, and post if you like ... BUT the only way to keep it to yourself, is to do just that

I've never really seen anyone accused of stealing someone's mod though ...

[aron]

I hate to say this, but yes, if you intend on selling your mod info or you would feel bummed if someone else sold it, then keep it to yourself.

[wampcat1]

Hmmm ... That's a tough one. Many of Keeley's mods are floating around, some he's posted and some he's written about in pedal power. The problem is that mods are ever changing ... Who knows what version of his "DS-1 Ultra" he's doing NOW ... Anyone who really wants to steal a mod can just reverse engineer it by buying the pedal, if you have the know-how to determine what components were changed. Most here would respect your mod and not sell it themselves or claim it as their own ..... BUT there's always a risk if you post it, and you never know who's lurking

There's tons of info here on mods ( as you know ) and most of my mods are based on this info. I've posted my DS-1 and SD-1 mods because I WANT to share and couldn't have come up with them without this community. I still do my mods, and make a bit of money at it, for local guys who don't have a clue how to do it but will gladly share with anyone capable as I'm not about to quit my day job.

Most commercial modders come up witth this stuff the same way you and I would ... Looking at a schematic, Trial and error, and most importantly EARS! ... Have a good mod, get it into the "right player's" hands and everyone wants one. That's the bussiness side ...

So .... hmmmm .... good luck, have fun, and post if you like ... BUT the only way to keep it to yourself, is to do just that

I've never really seen anyone accused of stealing someone's mod though ...

Very true, and well put!
There has been several times where a person has posted a modification and it is letter for letter the same as one of mine, I just think that in this day and age, information like this is (unfortunately for those who are trying to make a living with it! )traded very easily.

There was a guy doing all the keeley mods to the letter and selling them on ebay. He went by "doobtone" and he doesn't do it anymore.

In reality, the mods that most of us do to commercial pedals are quite simplistic and are generally just component changes rather than any heavy mods. Several reasons for this, it is more profitable (quicker and easier) just to build your own od/dist/fuzz rather than tear out 60% of an existing pedal and try to fit it in a little tiny box. Not to mention you tweak it exactly like you want it.

All in all, experience has proven that if you don't want to find out that someone else is doing your mods, DON'T post them (or write a book detailing them...) as it's a sure guarantee that SOMEONE is lurking here who can and will do that. I could point fingers at several who I know for a fact are reselling mine...but that isn't the point here.   

Take care,
Brian
(IndyGuitarist.com)

[wampcat1]

I wanted to add something as well here (more for the lurkers than the regular forumites here). If you DO post it on here, the honest businessman will contact you and ask if it is ok for them to quote you or to use your idea. I myself have done that a few times here with several forumites, and I try to return the favor by pushing traffic/sending business to this site.

Take care,
Brian

[Melanhead]

well put Brian! ...

It's funny but ever since I've looked at your SD-1 F#$%@tone mod I can't stop using that diode configuration in my pedals ... It's in one of my mods and all of the OD's I've built ... The first one I built had a switch to test a bunch of diode configs, and to me, it sounded best.

I couldn't imagine stealing someone's mod and selling it as mine ... I guess I was brought up right 

Like you said, most mods are "quite simplistic and are generally just component changes" I think the biggest factor in this is having a good, and trusted, set of EARS ...

[wampcat1]

well put Brian! ...

It's funny but ever since I've looked at your SD-1 F#$%@tone mod I can't stop using that diode configuration in my pedals ... It's in one of my mods and all of the OD's I've built ... The first one I built had a switch to test a bunch of diode configs, and to me, it sounded best.

I couldn't imagine stealing someone's mod and selling it as mine ... I guess I was brought up right 

Like you said, most mods are "quite simplistic and are generally just component changes" I think the biggest factor in this is having a good, and trusted, set of EARS ...

I know what you mean -- I use that diode configuration alot myself for other pedals - it has a very cool clipping texture and feel!
In fact, try it in the boss od-2...un-freakin-believable how nice of an overdrive it is....must...build...one.... 

Take care,
Brian

[Melanhead]

well put Brian! ...

It's funny but ever since I've looked at your SD-1 F#$%@tone mod I can't stop using that diode configuration in my pedals ... It's in one of my mods and all of the OD's I've built ... The first one I built had a switch to test a bunch of diode configs, and to me, it sounded best.

I couldn't imagine stealing someone's mod and selling it as mine ... I guess I was brought up right 

Like you said, most mods are "quite simplistic and are generally just component changes" I think the biggest factor in this is having a good, and trusted, set of EARS ...

I know what you mean -- I use that diode configuration alot myself for other pedals - it has a very cool clipping texture and feel!
In fact, try it in the boss od-2...un-freakin-believable how nice of an overdrive it is....must...build...one.... 

Take care,
Brian

Cool! ... 

[stm]

I know what you mean -- I use that diode configuration alot myself for other pedals - it has a very cool clipping texture and feel!
In fact, try it in the boss od-2...un-freakin-believable how nice of an overdrive it is....must...build...one.... 

To Brian:

Sorry for the lame questions, but since you have experimented a lot with diodes I would like to know if you have noticed a significant difference:
a. between 1N4001's and 1N4007's (or with other diodes from the 1N400x family)?
b. between 1N60's and 1N34's?

I am asking because here I can only find 1N4007's and 1N60's, so I have no easy means of testing myself.  As a reference, I can hear a difference between 1N4007's and 1N4148's.  Also, I read a post of someone saying he preferred the 1N34's over the 1N60's 

Best regards.

[wampcat1]

I know what you mean -- I use that diode configuration alot myself for other pedals - it has a very cool clipping texture and feel!
In fact, try it in the boss od-2...un-freakin-believable how nice of an overdrive it is....must...build...one.... 

To Brian:

Sorry for the lame questions, but since you have experimented a lot with diodes I would like to know if you have noticed a significant difference:
a. between 1N4001's and 1N4007's (or with other diodes from the 1N400x family)?
b. between 1N60's and 1N34's?

I am asking because here I can only find 1N4007's and 1N60's, so I have no easy means of testing myself.  As a reference, I can hear a difference between 1N4007's and 1N4148's.  Also, I read a post of someone saying he preferred the 1N34's over the 1N60's 

Best regards.

I don't hear much difference between 4001's or anything in the 400x family, but in a simple circuit like a dist + I can hear some subtle differences between germaniums. To be fair and honest, I can hear differences between various germ. diodes of the same type, I suppose due to tolerance.

I don't hear so much differance (between germaniums) when used in a circuit with multiple clipping stages so much, SOMETIMES I can tell a difference in response or 'feel'...

I think there is a definate response or 'feel' between alot of diodes and diode combinations that while may not be measurable, I can definately tell a differance...same thing with transistors as well.

Hope that helps!

Take care,
Brian

[stm]

Thanks Brian.

The thing that bothered me about the 1N4001 diodes with respect the 1N4007's is that they are rated for 50V instead of 1000V, meaning the junction of the former is much thinner, which means a much higher parasitic capacitance. This capacity might produce some filtering (in a manner similar to the usual 47/50/51 pF capacitor seen across the diodes on most TS workalikes).

With respect to the germaniums, they tend to have much higher series resistance than a silicon diode, so at higher drive currents (or with large signals) their transfer curve diverts from the classical exponential I v/s V relationship and turn more into a line whose slope is given by the diode's series resistance.  This high parasitic resistance is what I consider responsible of the sotfer knee.  If this were true, then it would be a matter of choosing the right resistor for silicon diodes and place it in series to obtain a similar effect.  Apparently this has not been verified yet (either for right or wrong).

As for the Ge diodes, datasheets don't give a clue on the series resistance, which should be different within different families (like 1N34 and 1N60), thus my question.  Nevertheless I have measured the forward voltage drop with a DVM for a large lot of 1N60 diodes and I found these voltages were distributed essentially in two groups: about half of the devices near 240 mV, and the rest near 320 mV.  These diodes were attached together to an adhesive tape/paper forming a "ladder", just as they come from the manufacturer. This voltage differences may perfectly explain the difference in sound for similar devices. For instance, you may choose two identical ones or two purposedly different depending on the 2nd harmonic characteristics you want.

Best regards.