small stone "colour switch"

[R.G.]

sorry i asked about time periods and frequencys of a oscillator

Please don't whine. No one is beating you, verbally or otherwise.

i wish someone would just explain and help out

I don't see anything except people trying to explain and help out. I'd genuinely like to help you. I enjoy being able to point people in the right direction when they can profit from it. However, none of your responses to my replies or those of other people seem to have helped you much.

If i said i had a 4 yr electronic degree are you going to give me a 4yr degree answer to the question?

Well, actually yes, if I thought what you told me was true. If I believed that you had a BSEE, I could tell you answers at that level, and if you were a high school student who'd read one book on beginning electronics, I could give you answers at that level as well. Those answers are fundamentally different.

What I can't and won't do is to blindly answer questions where the only indications I get back is that you didn't get helped by it in any way. It's not only no fun for me, it is useless or worse to you, as I'll explain.

Degrees are not necessary, and some of the best electronics techs I ever saw were self taught. They did however dig in like crazy when anyone pointed them to references, and they saved person-to-person questions for when they were truly stuck. They also took an answer that they needed to study and understand X before their questions about Y would make sense seriously and went and learned about X before revisiting Y.

What follows is just an illustration, and I hope you can take it for the helpful advice it's intended to be. I will discount the possibility that you don't understand English well. Not knowing the language here is a big handicap. I would be just as handicapped learning advanced biology in a Finnish university. But you have assured me that you're fluent in English, so fine, I'll take that.

The illustration: you don't understand oscillators. Not any flavor. You've been told the basics in several replies. An oscillator requires some source of gain, a feedback path, and the arrangement of that gain and feedback path to allow the gain to provide it's own input. That can be by components in the feedback path that shift the phase of the feedback to be correct to reinforce the input, or it can be by simply having the gain and feedback path have no phase shift at all (both noninverting and non phase shifting). Unless you not only understand those sentences but also have some background in what they mean, you're forever going to be lost in wondering how oscillators work, what controls the speed of oscillation, how to modify them, and so on. And no amount of detailed answer about how to tweak some fine point of one oscillator will ever help you understand how to make another kind of oscillator work because you have no principles to build the understanding on. I can't tell from your posts whether you understand what "phase" is either. Or feedback. Or time constants. Again, this is not criticism. I simply can't tell what level to tell you things so you don't immediately have to ask what I meant.

I realize that I'm insisting on trying to give you the understanding you need, not the answers you want.

But It's not useful to either of us to give you answers before you're prepared to understand them. It's worse than useless. At best it wastes your time, and at worst it confuses and delays any real understanding. So the questions about background were an attempt to find some firm basis that you have to tell you an answer you can understand, not just confuse the point, or worse yet, let you think you now understand something when there's a yawning gulf of things that are hidden from you by the one answer you do have.

So -

I'm sorry markphaser. You've refused to provide any cooperation that would let me provide effective help. Best of luck to you in the future.

[markphaser]

An oscillator requires some source of gain, a feedback path, and the arrangement of that gain and feedback path to allow the gain to provide it's own input. That can be by components in the feedback path that shift the phase of the feedback to be correct to reinforce the input, or it can be by simply having the gain and feedback path have no phase shift at all (both noninverting and non phase shifting).  how oscillators work, what controls the speed of oscillation, how to modify them, and so on.

Yes i know that oscillators need a gain and feedback path to make it oscillate. I'm talking about the "oscillation frequency" which sets the oscillators or LFO range. The speed/rate pot controls the frequency or speed of oscillation in the feedback path mostly in the negative feedback path or the phase shift network in the feedback path which changes the phase which will change the oscillation frequency.

Most LFO low frequency oscillators are around like 10hz to 20hz how can i convert a LFO to like 50hz or 80hz or 100hz the speed/rate doesn't do this so how do i modify a LFO to changes its "fixed oscillation frequency"?

Most LFO's have a "frequency range" and its limited thats why they call it a LOW frequency oscillation how do u make it a High frequency  oscillator or just change the frequency range of the oscillation?

Phase shift oscillator LFO like the (univibe): what is the frequency range? 10hz? 15hz? 20hz? 25hz? 30hz? 35hz?

Comparitor/trigger LFO like most common phaser pedals: what is the frequency range? 10hz? 15hz? 20hz? 25hz? 30hz? 35hz?

The speed/rate pot doesn't change the oscillation frequency range it can't make a LFO low frequency oscillator into a high frequency oscillator is just changes the range which is limited

If the LFO is set at 15hz then the speed/rate pot can only go down to 10hz or up to 20hz maybe
If the LFO is set at 20hz then the speed/rate pot can only go below to 15hz or up to 25hz maybe
if the LFO is set a 10hz then the seeed/rate pot can only go below to 7hz or up to 12hz

See how the time constant of the LFO and sets the limited time periods/frequencys of the LFO?

[Fret Wire]

This should help with your questions:
http://www.linuxbench.org/Posting.html

[markphaser]

i know R.G knows about this stuff and can easily give the answers

[Dave_B]

This should help with your questions:
http://www.linuxbench.org/Posting.html

That was the funniest thing I've seen today.  Thanks, FW.   

[Sir H C]

On the Harmony Central boards, I asked him to answer four questions in an attempt to get a feeling for his level of understanding.  Here are the questions and his answers:

1. You have a 5 volt input, you want 3 volts out, you have a 33k resistor, what other resistor do you need (standard value 5%) to easily get the desired output voltage.

2. What is beta when used with bipolar transistors. What is the use of this, what is another name for this term, and why is it bad to rely on its value.

3. What is the difference between a sine and triangle and sawtooth oscillator. What are uses for each, and which is worst to use with a tremolo.

4. You have an op-amp. Your circuit is as follows, 1k to signal in on the + input, 1k to ground on the - input, and 10k from the negative input to the output. What is the gain. If you put the signal on the 1k on the - input and had the + input connected to ground what is the gain.

And His Reply:

Dude get off your horse

1. You have a 5 volt input, you want 3 volts out, you have a 33k resistor, what other resistor do you need (standard value 5%) to easily get the desired output voltage.

Its called a voltage divider
Use a variable resistor and put your DMM until its 3 volts output
and 5 volts for the input


2. What is beta when used with bipolar transistors. What is the use of this, what is another name for this term, and why is it bad to rely on its value.

Gain or alpha

U have to measure the gain/beta with a beta transistor meter
to match them

The use for gain is to get different distortion operations or to take a small signal like in the mV to boost to Volts

You have to bias it right for it to operate or it will be asymmetical output

3. What is the difference between a sine and triangle and sawtooth oscillator. What are uses for each, and which is worst to use with a tremolo.

They are different waveforms with different harmonics and overtones

The worst is Square wave


4. You have an op-amp. Your circuit is as follows, 1k to signal in on the + input, 1k to ground on the - input, and 10k from the negative input to the output. What is the gain. If you put the signal on the 1k on the - input and had the + input connected to ground what is the gain.

why don't u use a AC volt meter instead of making me into a human calculator

Just measure the Gain with a AC volt meter


Seems like your a Tech that is bitter about your past or your mentor or rolemodel was negative on teaching u electronics or your one of those techs that has learned the hard way and wants to rub off your negative additude onto others
To tell u the truth i really don't need your help there is other people besides you that are nicer and it willing to take some time and teach

[markphaser]

Sir HC are u trying to hijack my thread again

[R.G.]

i know R.G knows about this stuff and can easily give the answers

Yes, I do. The problem that I was referring to is that your posting pattern seems to be that you can't understand the answers. That's why I was trying to find out what your background is so I can give you an answer at a level that you can understand.

A coule of illustrations:

>>1. You have a 5 volt input, you want 3 volts out, you have a 33k resistor, what other resistor do you need (standard value 5%) to easily get the desired output voltage.
>Its called a voltage divider Use a variable resistor and put your DMM until its 3 volts output and 5 volts for the input

It is indeed called a voltage divider. However, your answer indicates that you don't understand voltage dividers. He gave you a trivially easy voltage divider question. If you really knew how voltage dividers work, you'd have either solved it in your head or written a couple of algebraic equations and came up with 22K immediately, no resistors, power source, or meter needed. The question was not a test of whether you could use a meter, it was a test of do you know what resistors do.

>>2. What is beta when used with bipolar transistors. What is the use of this, what is another name for this term, and why is it bad to rely on its value.
>Gain or alpha
>U have to measure the gain/beta with a beta transistor meter to match them
>The use for gain is to get different distortion operations or to take a small signal like in the mV to boost to Volts
>You have to bias it right for it to operate or it will be asymmetical output

Good guesses, but those are what you read in the forums, not what transistors actually do. Beta is gain, but it's the current gain. Alpha is the inverse of current gain. The use for gain is... well, gain. That is, the second of your answers. It's only a very tiny section of the audio community that even thinks of gain as about creating distortion. And while all devices need to be biased correctly to avoid creating distortion, that has little to do with gain. It seems that you have learned the forum buzzwords, and little else. That could well lead you to have a distorted view of electronics in general, and prevent you from ever getting a more complete understanding unless you get more basic help.

>>3. What is the difference between a sine and triangle and sawtooth oscillator. What are uses for each, and which is worst to use with a tremolo.
>They are different waveforms with different harmonics and overtones
>The worst is Square wave

They are indeed different waveforms, however, the harmonics and overtones they have are immaterial in this context. What is importat in a tremolo is that the waveform is being used to create an audible loudness proportional to the waveform, so the relative harmonics of each don't really matter. What matters is what they do to the loudness. There really is not a worse one. It all depends on what you want the sound variance to be. And many people actually like the on/off/on sound of a square wave tremolo.

>>4. You have an op-amp. Your circuit is as follows, 1k to signal in on the + input, 1k to ground on the - input, and 10k from the negative input to the output. What is the gain. If you put the signal on the 1k on the - input and had the + input connected to ground what is the gain.

>why don't u use a AC volt meter instead of making me into a human calculator
>Just measure the Gain with a AC volt meter

Once again, the question was not really "what's the gain?" It was really "do you understand opamp gain and feedback circuit basics?"
The gain of any opamp circuit with resistor elements is Rf/Ri when the signal goes into the inverting input resistor. It's 1+Rf/R1 if the signal goes into the noninverting input, so the answers are 11 and 10 depending on which input is chosen for input. No opamps, meters, or parts are needed. I's purely a mental exercise that really asks "do you understand the fundamentals of opamps?".

The bottom line is that you appear not to have an understanding of the fundamentals that would let you understand the fine points you're asking about. And that's my point about needing to know your background. Not having an adequate electronics background is not something to hide. We **all** started with zero knowledge about electornics. But if you don't build a good base to learn from, you may never get to a good understanding. And that's my point, belabored again.

[TELEFUNKON]

the switch has two throws
what are the names of the positions?
they are not labelled
is it on and off?
or red and green?
which is which

[Dave_B]

What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow ?

[bluesdevil]

Here's one that's caused me a few sleepless nights in the past:
"Why is a carrot more orange than an orange?"

[Dave_B]

Madison Square Garden isn't on Madison, isn't square, and it isn't a garden.  Discuss.

[markphaser]

ok back to my thread and not hijacking it 

An oscillator requires some source of gain, a feedback path, and the arrangement of that gain and feedback path to allow the gain to provide it's own input. That can be by components in the feedback path that shift the phase of the feedback to be correct to reinforce the input, or it can be by simply having the gain and feedback path have no phase shift at all (both noninverting and non phase shifting).  how oscillators work, what controls the speed of oscillation, how to modify them, and so on.

Yes i know that oscillators need a gain and feedback path to make it oscillate. I'm talking about the "oscillation frequency" which sets the oscillators or LFO range. The speed/rate pot controls the frequency or speed of oscillation in the feedback path mostly in the negative feedback path or the phase shift network in the feedback path which changes the phase which will change the oscillation frequency.

Most LFO low frequency oscillators are around like 10hz to 20hz how can i convert a LFO to like 50hz or 80hz or 100hz the speed/rate doesn't do this so how do i modify a LFO to changes its "fixed oscillation frequency"?

Most LFO's have a "frequency range" and its limited thats why they call it a LOW frequency oscillation how do u make it a High frequency  oscillator or just change the frequency range of the oscillation?

Phase shift oscillator LFO like the (univibe): what is the frequency range? 10hz? 15hz? 20hz? 25hz? 30hz? 35hz?

Comparitor/trigger LFO like most common phaser pedals: what is the frequency range? 10hz? 15hz? 20hz? 25hz? 30hz? 35hz?

The speed/rate pot doesn't change the oscillation frequency range it can't make a LFO low frequency oscillator into a high frequency oscillator is just changes the range which is limited

If the LFO is set at 15hz then the speed/rate pot can only go down to 10hz or up to 20hz maybe
If the LFO is set at 20hz then the speed/rate pot can only go below to 15hz or up to 25hz maybe
if the LFO is set a 10hz then the seeed/rate pot can only go below to 7hz or up to 12hz

See how the time constant of the LFO and sets the limited time periods/frequencys of the LFO?

[R.G.]

I'm truly sorry, markphaser. I cannot determine any appropriate answer without knowing what fundamentals you do and don't know. I really wish I could help you. Best of luck in your future endeavors.

[Sir H C]

What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow ?

Crap, I used to know this one.  What kind of swallow was it?  Oh and my proudest moment skiing was when I crashed into a small bush and screamed out "Look, a shrubbery!"

[markphaser]

It sounds like i can't answer your questions right or im not good enough. You already know my electronic background by Sir HC questions
and u said if u knew my electronic background u would give answers to the questiions so stop playing this game with Sir HC because
this is my point is that the questions that i ask are not just going to be "me" reading them so who cares what electronic background i have because other readers are going to read them also coming from all different levels of electronic educations or being self taught so if u want to help just answer the questions if u feel that my electronic background is not go for u or Sir HC to answer really simple questions for u then sorry i wasn't as gifted as u two and had the educations and schooling. So since u know my electronic background what happen to making the answer so easy for me to understand? or is this your and Sir HC games your playing?

Does my questions sound like i don't know my fundamentals of electronics? and if i don't know my fundamentals of electronics then answer the questions with answer that can be for someone that doesn't have fundamentals of electronics why are u making this so hard?

[Sir H C]

Dude, look, either you are joking and harrassing everyone, or you are unwilling to do the basic background work to understand what people are trying to tell you.  Either way, you are not worth our time and effort.  I can not teach you quantum mechanics if you don't understand classical physics, same with this stuff, you don't care to understand a voltage divider, I can not explain LFOs and the rest.  Seriously, if you are for real, RTFM!!!!!!

[markphaser]

Your harassing me with your questions

Did i ask about quantum mechanics or classical physics?

Do i know basic electronics ? yea i do

Do i have to prove i know basic electronics to you? no i don't

Do u have to answer my questions? No u don't i didn't ask u directly

Am i a joke? No but i know me and you don't get along

You wish i didn't know what a voltage divider does i learn that in the first day in my electronics class. DO i have to prove this to you no i don't because i asked questions

Either way, you are not worth our time and effort? good Sir HC please go away

Does Markphaser go in your threads asking u questions about your electronic background about op-amps,transitors,power supplys,filter caps,grounding problems,voltage dividers and when u answer them i say your not answering good enough? why would i want to ask with my educated answer for u Sir HC?

[markphaser]

**"Don't try to make my thread into a Electronic Background Drama"** ok we are real men

[TELEFUNKON]

the switch has two throws
what are the names of the positions?
they are not labelled
is it on and off?
or red and green?
which is which

above question was meant seriously, folks!
not intended to make fun of the topicstarter!
on my vintage box there`s up or down position,
but not labelled or named.
no schematic I`ve seen indicates up or down or on or off.