Real world differences between CD4049 and 4069?

[Brian Marshall]

I have had these CD4049's sitting here for a while, and most things i have used them in never seem to work right.  Now in theory like all other inverters they should be on or off, but since they are not schmit triggered obviously they have some inbetween area you can use as an amplifier with negative feedback (although not 100% linear)

A long time ago i built a distortion pedal that had a CD4069 in it, which no longer functions.  It seems to me that the 4069 tended more towards being on or off giving it more gain... is this true.

Anyways, i notice the 4049's are listed as buffer/inverters rather than inverters?

Any short explaination. 

Id love to look at a datasheet, but acrobat is not working on my computer for some reason.

[Sir H C]

From the schematic I found for the 4049, it is just an NMOS and PMOS device set as an inverter.  So it can be used as a gain stage too.  I guess by buffer they mean it can drive a large load.

[stm]

Look what the search function came up with:

http://www.elixant.com/~stompbox/smfforum/index.php?topic=25512.0

[Brian Marshall]

oops... shoulda searched

That pretty much answers my questions.

Thanks

[Mark Hammer]

Laney amplifiers use 4069s for a variety of coloration circuits found in their solid-state models.

[Sir H C]

The assymetrical current capability probably has to do with driving TTL logic.  This will make the DC operating point further from the 1/2 rail than normal.

[mojotron]

Anyone make a swizzle board for these 2 devices - allowing you to plug a 4069 into a swizzle board, then plug that into a 4049 slot. Basically a 4069 to 4049 converter?

[Connoisseur of Distortion]

the 4069 is digital and harsh.

[gez]

Laney amplifiers use 4069s for a variety of coloration circuits found in their solid-state models.

And they used it to good effect too!  I used to play through a Linebacker many moons ago and the overdrive was sweet...

[Brian Marshall]

Laney amplifiers use 4069s for a variety of coloration circuits found in their solid-state models.

And they used it to good effect too!  I used to play through a Linebacker many moons ago and the overdrive was sweet...

not being used for audio

[Mark Hammer]

They may be used for nonaudio purposes in some instances, but there ARE several Laney amps where 4069s were being used in linear mode, like built-in TSFs.

[Brian Marshall]

i was just commenting that i wasnt using them for audio, so i wasnt concerned with how they sound.  Infact using them for audio was not their original intention.... but plenty of people have used them for that purpose... 

[Mark Hammer]

Okey doke, we're on the same page now.  Carry on.

[stm]

the 4069 is digital and harsh.

  I've used the 4069UBE with good results. Not digital at all.  Built a Red Llama and a Rangemaster workalike with good results.

[Connoisseur of Distortion]

the 4069 is digital and harsh.

  I've used the 4069UBE with good results. Not digital at all.  Built a Red Llama and a Rangemaster workalike with good results.

i was kidding... note the smiley...

besides, i use digital amplifiers. i'd be one to talk 

[POTL]

This topic is almost as old as my car =)
But at least I will be able not to litter the forum again.
Good evening everyone.
I am wondering if I can replace 4049 with 4069 in EHX Electric Mistress / Mxr flanger etc circuits
I know that the task of inverters is to reduce the resistance in front of the BBD inputs and to reduce the minimum delay time.
Perhaps I did not look at the datasheet well, but I did not notice the value of the output resistance of 4069 in the characteristics.
Will it be the same as 4049? What other parameters are important?
Perhaps there is a 4049 in a dip-14 / so14 package or some equivalent?

[StephenGiles]

I'm wondering which EH Electric Mistress circuit you are changing a 4049 for a 4069?

[anotherjim]

I think the data for output source (drive) and sink current is a good guide to the output impedance.
Short story, 69 can source as much as the 49 but the 49 can sink far more than the 69 which lives up to its number by being very symetrical.
The 4049 should be better at driving the bbd clock capacitance, but only in one direction. Overall it should be faster but that's not to say that a 4069 won't be good enough. I don't know that one.

[Rob Strand]

FWIW, and not relevant to POTL's question, IIRC the 4049 input protection was different, no input diode to +V or something.   Anyway one of the CMOS inverters was like that.

[anotherjim]

The 4049 was I read, originally a bespoke design for a customer. Each inverter had to drive a large number of TTL inputs from high level logic. So it has a strong pull-down output and the gate inputs can go higher than the chip Vdd (so no diode to Vdd).  I've no idea what the 4049 (and 4050) was intended for, the only guess I come up with is for magnetic core memory arrays.
I wonder if anyone has to tried adding pull-up resistors to the BBD clocks from the 4049? This would help the weak current source of the CMOS while giving the much stronger current sink a little more work to do.

I assume the Electric Mistress in question is having to use 1024 stage BBD's and clock them faster to equal 512stage delay.