AMP OVERLOADER PEDAL

[Mark Hammer]

A couple of things...

First, you would appear to be new here.  That's not your fault.  So, welcome.    On the other hand, if you had any idea how many tens of thousands of  posts have past through these portals, with some 85% of them related to fuzz, you might have some sense of the jadedness of many of those who responded.  Looking at it from their angle, that's not their fault either.

Second, the sound you've described in your initial post is pretty darn chock full of hyperbole, don't you think?  That's not a sin at all, but it does make it hard for folks to translate what you desire into a physical circuit that accomplishes a specific physical/electronic task.  For most folks, "overload" = overdrive and saturation, so their suggestions are absolutely plausible.

My sense is that what you appear to want is something that is busy doing a variety of things at once, in no particular order, and with no particular degree of consistency.  Like the sonic equivalent of someone frantically running around the house trying to stop 1000 leaks in the ceiling with any sort of cup, bottle, pot, saucer, etc they can.  The problem with this sort of request is that creating such multidimensionality is extremely difficult to do with an analog circuit.  Although analog DOES tend to be more subject to interesting nonlinearities than digital (which is why we love it here), it is, in a sense, very linear in its nonlinearities.  I.E., turn control X up and you get more of Y.  When you make reference to amps, you are essentially alluding to multiple nonlinear processes occurring, some of which impact on each other, and some of which proceed on their own merry way.  Ultimately, I think what this means is that either: a) you're not going to get it from a pedal, or b) you're going to have to revise your description of what it is you're looking for so that someone COULD make a connection between the tonal target and some configurable circuit.

For my part, I suggested pedals in series simply because some pedals  can find themselves "struggling" in interesting and varying ways when pushed very very hard.  While the nonlinearities and irregularities may be in the direction you want, it would seem that the degree of distortion accompanying is not.  Of course how one mimics an amp "overloading" in the absence of at least SOME degree of distortion is beyond me.

Perhaps what is needed is a sound sample or reference to a recorded piece that illustrates what you want.  Otherwise, I'm afraid you're still going to elicit uncooperative responses from people.

Now, having said that, go to General Guitar Gadgets, and look through the late Charles R. Fischer's experimental; distortion design that was published post-humously in Electronic Musician: http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=174&Itemid=200

Yes, it is a distortion, and I know you didn't want a distortion, but this one utilizes a design in which the distortion element can be  "current starved", and apparently is capable of yielding some of those Neil Young type amplifier splat tones.  Note that the 4049 used as the distortion element is often used to deliver more tubey tones.  I'm not saying it nails tube amp tone, just that it is not intended to be a metal fuzz.  If this is in the direction of what you seek, go for it, and folks will be happy to help you troubleshoot what you build or have built for you.  If not, then I guess keep searching.

And guys (the rest of you), time to lay off Walters.  He has some things to learn about writing tight concise posts, but he's a decent guy, and doesn't deserve eternal razzing.

[Peter Snowberg]

I would never jump to try to build something for somebody who has tried 200 pedals to get a sound that isn't made by a pedal, and then wasn't happy with any of the pedals. I love the sound of an amp singing its swan song, but that gets expensive.


Honestly, you would do much better without the attitude.

FOR THOSE THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND: It's basically like taking a small tube amp and cranking it way beyond what the speaker can handle. YOU MAY SAY, then go get a small tube amp, da!!! BECAUSE a small tube amp is poor quality.

That's completely untrue and it makes no sense. Size and quality have NO relation across a VERY wide range of wattages.

I suggest you read up on how these "swan song" sorts of tones get generated. I know a great surf guitarist that gets some tones that might be some of what you're after (clean yet totally mangled), but he has a big pile of dead Fenders to show for it.

I also suggest you read up on lots of the engineering that has gone into recording that zillion or so classic tracks that have been produced through small amps over the past 40 years.

Asking somebody to build something that you're already calling stupid and have unrealistic goals for is not something that will work well.

As was already mentinoed, you may want to check out the Herzog.

[RDV]

Edit:

I was just pissed off when this fartknocker was being rude towards genuine attempts to help him.

It's been a trying day.
A fellow who just retired from where I work died yesterday without warning. After 30+ years of hard labor, all he got was dead.

Regards

RDV

[MartyB]

Now I'm just curious. Like Mark said, it'd be very useful if we had an example of this type sound.  Does anyone know of a track somewhere that has it?
I'm somehow imagining Neil Young's Live Rust "Like A Hurricaine"  BTW I just googled 7,620.000 entries for Herzog.  Is it an amp, effect ..?

[The Tone God]

But would someone please explain to me why we have to deal with this sort of thing?

We don't have to deal with it. Simple don't answer such posts. I have always been a fan of giving people enough rope to let them hang themselves. I was going to offer some some suggestions but observing the OP's bad additude particularly in the second post has turn me off so I won't help. Their loss, not mine.

Don't get too worked up by it. We treat each other good. Those who don't get it, don't get much help.

BTW I just googled 7,620.000 entries for Herzog.  Is it an amp, effect ..?

Have you tried a search here ? There have been some discussion about it including the a FET emulation of it called the "Fetzog" I belive. The Herzog is basically a champ with a dummy resistive load on the OT that is taped for an output.

Andrew

[vanhansen]

I have to agree with RDV.  Granted, I threw out a not so acceptible to him reply but it will accomplish the goal.  Getting the sound of a tube amp on the brink of meltdown out of a pedal AND clean (meaning without distortion) is just not possible for the simple fact that if the amp was getting that much fed through it and was close to melting, it WILL be distorting, plain and simple. 

The only song I can think of that has such a tone, or close to it, is Neil Young's "Hey Hey, My My".  That's the ripped speaker driven by a really loud tube amp tone.  The circuit that Mark recommended may do the trick, who knows.

I'll just leave it at that.  People who slam others and accuse others of not knowing what they're talking about don't deserve any more than they've already gotten.

[bluesdevil]

I'd have to agree with MartyB and The Tone God for recommendations or examples of what I would think is what  he's talking about. Neil Young's Crazy Horse sound is what I imagine an amp being near meltdown sounds like to me!! Also a power soak/brake is a good idea if you don't want to blow yer speakers just yet..... Don't forget a fat and LOUD booster pedal pounding the front end, of course.
           Good luck with your all-in-one "Overloader" mission.

[bluesdevil]

sorry, Vanhansen..... didn;t mean to repeat your post!!

[SeanCostello]

Someone from Death by Audio was going to design this pedal, he knew how to do it but probably got overwhelmed or wanted to go make another fuzz.

Uh, yeah, I'm sure that's why he opted out...

Sean Costello

[vanhansen]

sorry, Vanhansen..... didn;t mean to repeat your post!!

Don't worry about it.  Repitition may be a good thing here. 

[SeanCostello]

A few ideas to get that overdriven Neil Young melting Fender Deluxe sound:

- Use an envelope follower (maybe RMS based) on the input signal. Amplify the output of the envelope follower, sum it with the input signal, and run the result through a soft clipping circuit. The box should have two gain controls, one for the input signal, one for the envelope follower. This will result in a time-varying DC bias that might be useful in emulating extreme power supply sag, or the "blocking" distortion I have heard about that is caused by the large interstage coupling caps in the Fender Deluxe. Ideally, you could set up the circuit such that the input signal by itself has only minor clipping, but the DC bias from the envelope generator is set to cause extreme distortion of transients, and that weird "sucking" sound.

- Figure out a good dynamic speaker emulation circuit, that can emulate the time-varying distortion of a speaker under heavy load. I'm not entirely sure what this sound is, but it might be somewhat different than other types of distortion.

- Build a Fender Deluxe copy, put a pot on the extra speaker out, and use the speaker out as a line out to send to another amp. Turn both volumes up to 12 and enjoy.

Sean Costello

[phaeton]

Are you walters ?

That's the first thing I thought of when I read the opening post.... then I was ... "naww... they don't have Walters here......."


Damn....

[theblueark]

Could this be what you're looking for?



Sound clips:
http://www.metasonix.com/TX2guitar1.mp3
http://www.metasonix.com/TX2guitar1.mp3
http://www.metasonix.com/TX2guitar2.mp3
http://www.metasonix.com/TX2blues.mp3
http://thewretch.com/audio/WR_ButtProbe.mp3
http://www.notbreathing.com/agonizingbuttpuncher.mp3


Saw it here http://www.metasonix.com/TX2.htm and was amazed why anyone would want one.

[MR COFFEE]

Mmmmm,

Yup. I think several of you got it right off the bat.

Peter Snowberg, Spudulike, davebungo, and RDV (really sorry to hear about your friend at work - Jeez, life reminds us what petty shit we obsess over, doesn't it?...hang in there dude).

This is a DIY forum and overloader came here to find someone to build the pedal he wants *right*, and, what was it, TWO HUNDRED pedals he had already tried, but *they* were all bullsh*t that idiots like Pete Cornish, Zachary Vex, etc. tried to pawn off on him instead of building him the perfect pedal the way he wanted it.

So, overloader, here goes...

"SH*T, CAN I JUMP IN LINE TO TRY AND PLEASE YOU, TOO?..... I KNOW *I'LL* BE GOOD ENOUGH!" 
(Can you hear his batteries charging? And oh, if he doesn't just move on, I'll be another asshole that gave him a "smart" answer when he was *really* wanting help... <sigh>

Y'know, I do some custom work with musicians who want to find "their sound", and some of them are willing to spend a day or two - and pay for it - finding and tweaking the right circuits to get the kind of sound they're after. And I respect them for what they're after and how they present themselves...

And I've also learned to ignore their buzzwords and to just start listening to what and how they play. And then start showing them stuff and saying, "more like this, or more like that?"

I'll never forget the lesson I learned working with a professional semi-famous bass player who kept saying he wanted his bass to have more "edge" (while I tweaked the circuitry), and after an hour or two of both of us getting more and more frustrated as I tweaked circuitry to give his bass more "edge", I listened to his bass sound and set it how I figured it sounded good for how and what he played, and I *finally* figured out that what he *really* wanted was more of what most of us would call "bottom"  And I was a *genius* after that...

but this thread, well... IMHO,

Every forum needs a *troll*. It's like a law of physics or something. 

If I'm wrong about you overdriver, sorry.

But forget posting on the Internet and go find someone who will work with you one-on-one in person to find the sound you're after. And save your money up because that kind of work don't come cheap.

You won't find your "answer" here.

[Connoisseur of Distortion]

maybe you could make a pedal that generates nothing but crossover distortion... that might be the trick...

[petemoore]

  So Pete and Zack get slighted, two fo the most reputable peddlers in the biz...
  We're a buncha jokers...
  And little tube amps are not as good.
  Well taking all things into consideration, I'd say you need a overloaded tube amp to make overloaded amp sounds.
  Oh you want it ina pedal...that's right...lol.
  See GEO, at the bottom it shows 'as always, how to get tube sound in a pedal'.

[Ben N]

Not to give Mr. Overloader too much credit, but are there parts of the sound of an overloaded amp that maybe can be simulated in a pedal design, but have not been fully explored?  Sean, I didn't really get that envelope follower thing, but it sure sounded like something new.  And what about output transformer abuse--is there something to be be done there that might have really different results that all the variations on clipping diodes, mis-biased transistors and overdriven FETs, etc?

Ben

[A.S.P.]

yes... 

(though the melting tubes and the torn speaker deserve 2 different approaches).

and: 1 thing to consider, folks:
isn`t DIY a case of trying to find new solutions,
and not only trying to copy existing stuff?

why shouldn`t Overloader ask here, when he can`t find what he`s looking for
on the market?

imho, you don`t need overly much gain to overload an amp - just push the devices involved to and beyond their limits...
and abuse them.

[SeanCostello]

Sean, I didn't really get that envelope follower thing, but it sure sounded like something new. 

I haven't seen the technique used in an analog pedal, but I have heard about it in digital contexts. The DP/4 had a distortion algorithm designed by Jon Dattorro (I think) that used the output of an envelope follower to generate a time-varying DC bias that was then run into a distortion function.

In addition, R.G. discusses something similar in this ongoing thread:

http://www.elixant.com/~stompbox/smfforum/index.php?topic=40819.0

The main difference is that the Experience pedal R.G. describes apparently relies upon the tube stage following the pedal to create its effects, while the concept I discussed would have a DC bias running into soft clipping within the pedal itself.

A somewhat related idea: The legendary Boscorelli Stompbox Cookbook discusses tremolo options that mix an LFO output with the audio signal, and then runs the result through clipping.

Sean COstello

[A.S.P.]

... to generate a time-varying DC bias that was then run into a distortion function

there was a (patent-related) thread here within the last 3 months, talking about that...