GT-2 vs VALVE PURIST

[Connoisseur of Distortion]

i'm not saying that people will find their dream tones in the digital of today (well, most people  )... but one day, they're going to be paying $20 for preamp tubes, and then digital is going to be significantly more appealing.

everyone knows that they're trying to emulate tube sounds, and that they're getting better. It's just a matter of time...

[bwanasonic]

I posted a similar response recently, but it is important to be more specific about what aspect of *tube* sound and tube response you are looking for. If you play high-gain styles, or very clean, you may find tube simulations to be *right up your alley*. But if you *live* in the spaces between clean / breakup / crunch / distortion, and the sound you are trying to capture is the main focus (not a backing track), then you'll pay whatever tubes are likely to cost for the forseeable future. I have heard some decent imitations of the *static* aspect of some famous tube tones, but they haven't even begun to approach the dynamic way tube amps transition from the extremes in response to playing technique. It's not a matter of valve purism, any more than a photographer who still uses film is considered a silver purist. The resolution just simply isn't even close yet. I am specifically talking about the complete equation of tube amp, including the PI, power tubes and speakers. Jimi called his guitar his "Electric Lady". Tube recreations have moved on beyond the *Pocket Pal* stage, into *Life-like blowup doll stage". I don't see the full on clones coming anytime soon. Eventually, sure. What you do have is lowered expectations. Some people just end up settling for the blow up doll.

Kerry M

[Connoisseur of Distortion]

are you callin' my crystal clean tones and 30 second sustain a blow up doll!? 

i don't get what you mean by how a tube "transitions" with playing technique. are you referring to breakup? pick attack? i just don't follow... also, how do speakers figure in? wouldn't a cleverly designed speaker simulator do the trick?

the accurate simulator is probably closer than we all think. considering how close companies are now, I imagine another 10 years could make a blindfold test say something about the player 

[MartyMart]

... but one day, they're going to be paying $20 for preamp tubes,

Erm, I'm paying that for decent 12AX7's now !! 

MM

[bwanasonic]

i don't get what you mean by how a tube "transitions" with playing technique. are you referring to breakup? pick attack? i just don't follow... ,

By transition, I mean the range of clean to dirty/sustaining OD you can achieve just by varying picking attack/ volume knob, etc. Listen to someone like Roy Buchannan, Guitar Slim, or Mickey Baker, just to name a few out of countless examples. These players achieve a wide range of expressiveness in the dynamic range of clean to subtle to not-so-subtle distortion, just with playing technique. I also haven't heard anything close to an accurate model of the speaker breakup of say, a small 6v6 amp. I use many software plugins for convenience sake, and they are fine for a really processed high gain sound (Look! It's Satch!), *crystal* clean sounds, or what I call "The Sounds of Convenience". Sometimes you just have to grin and bear it for certain projects. But flying cars might come before I hear a digital simulation of Guitar Slim's tone on "Things I Used To Do" or "Story Of My Life". Hell, I don't even like the CD remixes compared to my well-worn vinyl copy.

Kerry M

[A.S.P.]

tube-simulation

[fikri]

We have the technology to simulate all kind of amps, stompboxes, and even guitar !
All the legend stompbox or amps can be recall just by dialing in a knob in your Multieffect !! Now dont get me wrong, i dont against this kind of technology, but i think every guitarist have to FEEL the REAL amps or stompboxes, right in front of them before they all dissapear.

[ragtime8922]

When you are sitting right in front of a tube amp it is awesome and much different from the ss amp right next to it BUT before you put all kinds of faith in to these tube amp "purists" you need to understand that they aren't all they're cracked up to be either.

Make 100 sound files (complete with band) of a mixture of ss/digital and real miked tube amps and see what the "experts" can pick out as tube amps. Better yet, give yourself a dime for every excuse you'll hear about the ones they couldn't get and you'll be a rich man. "Too much going on in that song" or "Too much delay" or "Drums/bass masking the pure tone", etc... LOL. The truth is that it's awesome live and/or directly miked in a simple recording but with all that goes on in the recording process picking out a tube amp is not full proof. (It should be noted that even 99 out of 100 is an failure to a so called tube purist).

[mac]

DSP has to emulate the preamp and the power amp as well. IMHO, the power amp is the harder task. A lot of funny things happen inside the el84s of my amp...
Anyway, I will never sell my tube amps. No matter how good the emulation could be, they are and will be the real thing.

mac

[Connoisseur of Distortion]

i see what you're saying. It might take a bit of effort to accurately simulate the path to ground, but i don't know if anyone's tried yet... 

[mac]

ASP and DSP need a SS power amp. A tube power amp will be silly
In almost 4 decades ASP never matched pre & power tube amps. On the other hand, in a decade or so DSP has gone a long way.
The SS power amp... Supposing that ASP/DSP get pretty close to valves, can the SS power amp drive the emulation intact to the loudspeakers? My guess is that a clean flat ss power amp can, unless there is a mystical brotherhood between power valves, output transformers and LS conspiring against ss...

mac

[je32ff]

As fa as live presence in the room a nice tube amp can't be beat. I get together to 'jam' with a bunch of guys from time to time who all have SS combo amps, Marshalls, Fenders, Line 6, Peavy etc. I use either the deluxe reverb or another 6L6 amp I built, usually with just a ts-9 and a crybaby. My tone is full and clear and everything else in the room sounds like an AM radio by comparison. These guys are all so thin and processed sounding that no full tone comes out. The contrast is amazing!

[WGTP]

FWIW, Joe Davidson's Vulcan and Blackfire distortions have the most tubish squish I have found in my distortion journey.  I have one on my breadboard.  The other breadboard has a dual diode clipper on it.  I find that dual clippers have more squish than singles like the TS or Dist+ circuits.  It seems there is an optimum amount of gain and clipping for maximum squish with SS.

I have to agree that the "transistion" area is the most difficult area for SS to match tubes.  SS comes closest when fully clean or fully distorted.  Tubes do the transition best IMHO.   

[ragtime8922]

FWIW, Joe Davidson's Vulcan and Blackfire distortions have the most tubish squish I have found in my distortion journey.  I have one on my breadboard.  The other breadboard has a dual diode clipper on it.  I find that dual clippers have more squish than singles like the TS or Dist+ circuits.  It seems there is an optimum amount of gain and clipping for maximum squish with SS.

I have to agree that the "transistion" area is the most difficult area for SS to match tubes.  SS comes closest when fully clean or fully distorted.  Tubes do the transition best IMHO.   

Joe Davidson's circuits are awesome. They are definitely the most pure sounding distortion circuits. In fact, after years of experimenting with op-amps it just doesn't compare IMO to the bi-polar and jfet tones.

[mac]

A 3 stages distortion pedal using germanium transistors, fets or both, with the right coupling caps & resistors, good bypass caps and some tone control makes more tone than everything I heard. Simple, effective and highly tweakable to fit amps and tastes. Ge can be biased using a voltage divider schem that can avoid termal runaway. Also leaky devices can be used. (I should post it).

I do agree with ragtime & wgtp. Joe's pedals are awesome. A few cascading stages make a lot of tubish noise.
Also I like http://www.runoffgroove.com fet versions of the preamp of famous tube amps like vox ac30 and marshall 18watt.
Can't forget the Big Muff Pi.

GT-2 has to many ICs. It sounds acceptable but...

mac