Tone Icons

[R.G.]

We see certain phrases over and over in music equipment advertising. I have started thinking of these things as "tone icons", presented as an image to be imparted, but with no particular meaning beyond advertising. While there may actually *be* stuff in the goods being hawked that back up the details of the tone icon, there is no a priori proof availble that the tone icon is useful in that context.

F'rinstance:
"Carbon Comp resistors" - usually capitalized; the idea is to make you think this will sound just like a real, vintage (fill in the blank here) of your dream; the reality of carbon comps is explained in an article at GEO, and in my recent Musician's Hotline article.
"Hand wired" - whose hands? Are the hands skilled? Did they rub magic dust onto the parts? More to the point, did they follow mil-spec hand wiring techniques for hand wiring, or did they glom on solder as glue? While there is magic in hands, simply the fact that it was an all manual process also pulls in "more prone to error, fatigue, and lack of skill".
"All tube..." - some things *are* better as all tubes, some are not. Simply the fact that tubes are used has no effect on the magic vintageness of the tone.
"tube rectifier"- tube rectifiers heat up slowly, and can be of some use in preventing cathode stripping in circuits with a plate supply over 500V. They can also add a sag in the power supply circuit when a lot of current is pulled. This last can be done just as easily by inserting a resistor. It's by no means clear that effects smaller than power amps even have the ability to cause sag, as they are very constant in the amount of current they pull. It's also pretty clear that you can't hear a tube rectifier as being different from a properly constructed solid state rectifier if the designer was trying.
"cardboard bobbin..."- usually seen in power amp ads, referring to the output transfomer, and sometimes even the power transformer and inductor. The material a transformer bobbin is made of is entirely transparent to magnetic fields. The fields don't even know they're there, so it can't have an effect on tone. Skilled winding? Now there's a big change in tone!
"germanium"- there are some very few circuits where germanium transistors and/or diodes make a difference. There aren't many. Simply including germanium transistors in a circuit has about as much effect on the tone as rubbing it with talcum powder. Magic tone does NOT flow out of germanium transistors.
"true bypass"- like many tone icons, this one has a grain of truth; true bypass can be good, used correctly. However, there are other ways, the Clinton bypass, high effects impedance and buffes among them; you have to look at the context on this one.
edited to add
"point to point" - again, a grain of truth lies at the bottom of this one: point to point wiring is good for wiring high frequency radio receivers based on tubes. It is also a great method for techs who like to do a lot of modification, as there is utterly NO underlying structure to get in the way of patching newer/older/ higher mojo parts, or hacking the amp to destroy any semblance of originality (see below). Good point to point wiring is just that - tube socket pin to tube socket pin, with terminal strips in the way if you absolutely need them. Note that this is NOT tagboard construction like the vast majority of pre-PCB Fenders. It is possible to mess up point to point wiring just like it's possible to mess up PCB layout and tagboard layout. It's the skill of the maker that matters here... and that's expensive if you get a lot of skill involved. But just because something is point to point does not mean it's good. It makes substantially no sense to use the term "point to point" about effects; "point to point" easily becomes synonymous with "not reproduceable" and "unreliable".
"vintage" - really? When did they stomp the grapes? "Vintage" means referring to the yearly making of wine. It does not mean "good" as those of you who have tried making wine may have found out. This one is tossed around to solicit an air of sophistication, aging, mellowing, being saved in big casks of oak until it's perfect. The problem is that most "vintage" things are just old. Some older things are great and worth pursuing. But they're rarely worth pursuing just because they're old. They had to be good to start with, in most cases. Some of the worst amps and effects ever made are still lurking in closets, attics and basements, waiting to be come "vintage". Another good phrase to replace "vintage" with is "... and I really need the money".
"NOS" - meaning "new, old stock"; this is another one of those almost content free terms. Try subbing in the words "bought a long time ago and couldn't sell them", which is what this means. It's tossed around to give the impression that the only good (whatevers) are the old ones because, of course they don't make them like that anymore.
There are others, but I'm tired of typing.

I won't even go into things like "oxygen free", "water jacketed", "silver soldered", "teflon (anything)", and so on from the hifi world.

Like all icons, these are images that are intended to call upon and reinforce your faith in things you've heard before. It's just that this religion costs you a lot of money.

[nelson]

"Marketing weenies"

Its a testament to your integrity that you consistently make a point of debunking advertising guff, myths and other marketing weenie patter.

Your fighting an uphill battle though, con artists have always prayed on the ignorant, greedy and stupid (theres plenty of them).

I suppose your giving the wolves less sheep to feed on.

But I think if anyone has that kind of disposable income to frivolously waste, without some decent research, then perhaps the marketing weenies deserve mutton.

[Processaurus]

Hallalouah!

Music equipment and hi-fi marketing is often similar to "The Emperor's New Clothes". 

"This one has all Carbon Comp resistors, your Majesty.  Surely ears as sensitive as yours can hear the difference."

It still is kinda interesting that gear manufacturers are trying to put technical-ish language on their gear.  Like Germanium Fuzz, or specifying Si or Ge clipping diodes on a toggle switch. 

The most hilarious aspect of this tye of marketing is new multi-effects processors that have one lonely 12AX7 prominently displayed, glowing red because there is a red LED behind it.  Now it'll sound good...

[TELEFUNKON]

"fully transistorized" was the latest rave 40 years ago - the mojo-factor of being "germanium equipped" hadn`t been invented yet.

[JimRayden]

Hmm, for example, I would pay extra bucks if a pickup had fiberboard plates and it was potted in beeswax, rather than a plastic and candle affair. I damn couldn't tell you why. It's mainly the good feeling of the sound going through natural stuff I guess.

That's what the mojo business is mainly about - the feeling that you're playing through something that has a cardboard bobbin, carbon resistors, something that was made in the 60's by the working class of the 60's... It seems quite logical that materials evolve into something better and smaller and better sounding and lower noise, etc. I agree that the "super vintage sound"-thing is foolish and I wouldn't buy anything really old just because of the sound, I personally feel I was born a few decades too late and want to somehow get into connection with that era - if not by sound, then perhaps by the materials I play through. Although I am hopelessly attracted to the vintage stuff you seem to despise, I take it sensibly and don't hope for a super mega mojo beano sound.

Call me a fool!

The most hilarious aspect of this tye of marketing is new multi-effects processors that have one lonely 12AX7 prominently displayed, glowing red because there is a red LED behind it.  Now it'll sound good...

Oh yeah, this is the thing to fight against these days. At least the "vintage" stuff used tubes correctly.
EDIT: Well, not "fight against"... "despise" would be a better word.

[petemoore]

  I'd be glad I know what I know if I was in control...
  I had to pin 'Dude' down and hit him hard to get any of the necessary information to penetrate the attention deficit disorder coupled with BUNK, mixed with MIS-Schooling...what a mess...
  This took major effort...extremely taxing, nearly left the band as a result, I was much happier before I knew 'stuff'.
  "PA is preset" Dude says after calling me to check my Mic...and showing a sustained inability to even identify which channel my Mic was in...then stating "Sit Down and Shut Up if you wana play in THIS band"...achhhe...
  I thought 'Preset to *what...where it got bumped to when it was moved or some other Mic with different Freq response than my EV747?'...I wanted it adjusted to get rid of the mud and asked 'Can you turn the bass down'...and was 'given: "We never adjust the knobs from where they were preset by 'Steelie' [some other 'sound man']".
  The level of misinformation available is truly astounding, all moot too...or nearly so...unless there is a system to reference discussions 'on'...and someone in control who doesn't have impenetrable walls of misinformation preventing any useful knowledge from getting in.
  I tried in private, but the cell phone coupled with the ADD prevented anything useful as far as PA info from being absorbed by 'The Idiot Controller'...I finally had to bring the issues before the band...and PROVE the stupidity was preventing the band systems from 'shining'...
  It is simply amazingly astounding the amount of 'misinfoing' that can get going and become a 'fixture' in a band...
  ...Ok...but there is HELLUVALOT more to achieving excellent sound beyond..'no feedback'.
  UNSCHOOLING the 'idiot'....Whew...what an extremely difficult task that can be...OUCH...I had to hurt him bad mentally before anything could even be adressed 'logically, calmly and with reason'...Breaking through attention deficit coupled with massive misinfo is very fatigueing .
  ABSOLUTELY FREAKIN" AMAZING...mismatched ohmages on speakers, inability to even "SEE" what a knob is for or what it Actually DOES...nope...nope nope nope...dope can't touch any knobs...nope...no noe...plus every other amazingly stupid thing and in addition to the actual stupidity he added...I KNOW What I"m Doing PETE...SDASU...if you wanna play in THIS Band .
  ...I was about to wring his freakin' neck...not at a gig I decided.
  I don't know how all this misinformation stuff got going...yes I do...it is to be disregarded vehimately, trashed immediately, completely debunked ASAP...Unbelievable...almost.

[RDV]

There's no replacement for:

"TALENT".

It can't be bought, or even rented, or for damn sure stolen.

RDV

[nelson]

There's no replacement for:

"TALENT".

It can't be bought, or even rented, or for damn sure stolen.

RDV

Depends.

[JimRayden]

  I'd be glad I know what I know if I was in control...
  I had to pin 'Dude' down and hit him hard to get any of the necessary information to penetrate the attention deficit disorder coupled with BUNK, mixed with MIS-Schooling...what a mess...
  This took major effort...extremely taxing, nearly left the band as a result, I was much happier before I knew 'stuff'.
  "PA is preset" Dude says after calling me to check my Mic...and showing a sustained inability to even identify which channel my Mic was in...then stating "Sit Down and Shut Up if you wana play in THIS band"...achhhe...
  I thought 'Preset to *what...where it got bumped to when it was moved or some other Mic with different Freq response than my EV747?'...I wanted it adjusted to get rid of the mud and asked 'Can you turn the bass down'...and was 'given: "We never adjust the knobs from where they were preset by 'Steelie' [some other 'sound man']".
  The level of misinformation available is truly astounding, all moot too...or nearly so...unless there is a system to reference discussions 'on'...and someone in control who doesn't have impenetrable walls of misinformation preventing any useful knowledge from getting in.
  I tried in private, but the cell phone coupled with the ADD prevented anything useful as far as PA info from being absorbed by 'The Idiot Controller'...I finally had to bring the issues before the band...and PROVE the stupidity was preventing the band systems from 'shining'...
  It is simply amazingly astounding the amount of 'misinfoing' that can get going and become a 'fixture' in a band...
  ...Ok...but there is HELLUVALOT more to achieving excellent sound beyond..'no feedback'.
  UNSCHOOLING the 'idiot'....Whew...what an extremely difficult task that can be...OUCH...I had to hurt him bad mentally before anything could even be adressed 'logically, calmly and with reason'...Breaking through attention deficit coupled with massive misinfo is very fatigueing .
  ABSOLUTELY FREAKIN" AMAZING...mismatched ohmages on speakers, inability to even "SEE" what a knob is for or what it Actually DOES...nope...nope nope nope...dope can't touch any knobs...nope...no noe...plus every other amazingly stupid thing and in addition to the actual stupidity he added...I KNOW What I"m Doing PETE...SDASU...if you wanna play in THIS Band .
  ...I was about to wring his freakin' neck...not at a gig I decided.
  I don't know how all this misinformation stuff got going...yes I do...it is to be disregarded vehimately, trashed immediately, completely debunked ASAP...Unbelievable...almost.

And here's the moral, Kids. Don't drink & post. No offence but my english isn't good enough to read that sophisticatedly formatted text yet. Anyone else wish to give me a hand and translate the text into conventional english?

[Dave_B]

And here's the moral, Kids. Don't drink & post. No offence but my english isn't good enough to read that sophisticatedly formatted text yet. Anyone else wish to give me a hand and translate the text into conventional english?

Maybe you had to live through it.  I was in a few bands like that over the years so I knew exactly what he was saying.   

Essentially, he was in a band with a gentleman who had no idea how to operate the PA, but was influenced by people who thought they did.  The guy was paralyzed by his own inexperience and misinformation, and had become phobic about anyone touching the PA.  As often happens in those cases, reason is replaced by a 'tough guy' stance.   

Sort of like the way people used to set their Graphic EQ's in the shape of a "V" without having any idea why.  "DON'T TOUCH IT!! IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE IN A V!!"  Actually, it's sort of like a lot of things.   

[Doug_H]

This probably belongs in the "mojo" thread. In any case, you're preaching to the choir here.

Wanna have some fun, R.G.? Post this at the Gear Page, 18W Forum, or HC. Then stand back...

Doug

[JimRayden]

Thanks bellyflop, luckily enough I haven't had a situation like this because I'm the one to turn all the knobs and others quietly obey.

This probably belongs in the "mojo" thread. In any case, you're preaching to the choir here.

Wanna have some fun, R.G.? Post this at the Gear Page, 18W Forum, or HC. Then stand back...

Doug

You wanna get RG killed?

[petemoore]

  Essentially, he was in a band with a gentleman who had no idea how to operate the PA, but was influenced by people who thought they did.  The guy was paralyzed by his own inexperience and misinformation, and had become phobic about anyone touching the PA.  As often happens in those cases, reason is replaced by a 'tough guy' stance.
  A excellent summation Bellyflop, thank you.. much more concise...and it exactly describes the scenario.
  Re-schooling...can be a hard, very painful experience for the 'school-ee' and the 'school-er'...has to be done or bypassed IMESHO.
  I much prefer to have another *knowledgeable [*well trained individual w/training double checked by me...lol] person dialing knobs/setting up a PA...I'm good at it, but prefer to concentrate on guitar and vocals as opposed to ...enduring all the CRAP a soundman may have to experience during one evening.
  This is all about a 'set and forget' type 'soundman' stuff...nothing gets adjusted after it's been adjusted [hopefully all adjustments get looked at at least ONCE in an evening...]
  It's not that hard, or doesn't have to be...just get a touch of overkill going, set it so everythings about 1 notch below feedback, then use the dynamics the Mics were designed for...as opposed to every member consistantly 'eating' the mics and 'pushing hard' all night long...yuckk.
  ...assuming the 'technical' stuff's in order...like ... no ohmage mismatches for instance...or 'Stage Monitors' that...you have to stick your ear ON to determine it's putting out...almost nothing...dragging cabinets around that serve absolutely no purpose is for idiots with nothing better to do than make extra trips back and forth for nothing...except extra time, money, spent energy and effort.
  Just touching the surface here...there is plenty of 'misinformation' abounding...TONS of it. Rediculous stuff that steers the less than knowledgeable into poopland...repeatedly.

[amz-fx]

Music equipment and hi-fi marketing is often similar to "The Emperor's New Clothes". 

The Rockstar's New Stompbox

with apologies...   

-Jack

[DDD]

"tantalum capacitors"
"film capacitors"
"...MOSFET..."

[RDV]

There's no replacement for:

"TALENT".

It can't be bought, or even rented, or for damn sure stolen.

RDV

Depends.

Oh please do tell me where I might aquire more talent?

RDV

[puretube]

to each, his throne...

[JimRayden]

There's no replacement for:

"TALENT".

It can't be bought, or even rented, or for damn sure stolen.

RDV

Depends.

Oh please do tell me where I might aquire more talent?

RDV

Well, you can sell, buy, rent, even steal talent but there always happens to be a physical beholder that you cannot take it out of. It's like selling a box of gold but the box is made of steel and there is no way to open it (unless you blow it up, thus also destroying the gold).

----------
Jimbo

[Joe Kramer]

"germanium"- there are some very few circuits where germanium transistors and/or diodes make a difference. There aren't many. Simply including germanium transistors in a circuit has about as much effect on the tone as rubbing it with talcum powder. Magic tone does NOT flow out of germanium transistors.

I'm disappointed to hear this from you RG.  Of course magic tone doesn't flow out of germanium transistors--magic tone doesn't flow out of anything, anywhere.  But that doesn't mean a significantly different or useful tone cannot be had by the use of "alternate devices" like germanium transistors.  I've used them in everything from phase shifters to condenser mics, and there is a most certainly audible difference.  I happen to like that difference, not for the alleged magic mind you, but for the sound.  Even so, I'm willing to grant that I may be among a small and eccentric minority as far as what my hearing leads me to conclude.  Here are some other folks in that minority with me:

http://chandlerlimited.com/products/germanium_pre.php

The last issue of TapeOp magazine had a very favorable review of these.  I can't afford one, but I may venture my own DIY version some day.   

Regards,
Joe

[PeterJ]

Simply including germanium transistors in a circuit has about as much effect on the tone as rubbing it with talcum powder.

Oooohhhh....  NOS talcum powder.... Must have....


As a marketing weenie, I resemble and completely agree with these remarks. The merits of any circuit should come down to "how does it sound?", not "what is it made of?"

Peter