I noted something

[Gus]

I have not been hang here as much as I did in the past in all of Aron's sites and older ampage days

One thing that I seem to see is a few people modding effects for money .  And then I read some of the posts.  I hope they don't work on tube amps or anything that plugs in the wall before reading about liabilty.

You know, real  designers get good money per hour or job.

Changing a few parts(and knowing why) is child's play for someone that went to school for electronics, it is simple stuff with easy to find answers. Slew rate DA ESR filters etc has been known about a long time. There is no magic to this stuff. 

What happened?

[Unbeliever]

What happened?

The same thing that happened when MS made visual basic 'available' to non-programmers, non-talented musicians got their hands on PCs and looping / sequencing software etc - a wave of 'pop culture' developed where superficially everything looks / sounds good but has little real substance or redeeming value. Is that what you mean? 

[Peter Snowberg]

Thank you for your contributions Gus. 

We have the real engineers to thank for keeping new life flowing in here. It gets much harder when a little place (like this used to be) grows from a small bunch of chefs in an experimental kitchen to a much larger place with a much wider range of skills.

Many of the chefs are still here, but it gets harder to hear their lessons or taste their cooking through all of those looking for quick grilled cheese sandwiches.

Fads will come and go but there will always be a demand for 5 star engineering and there will always be a large crowd who are respectful of those who ask the questions of how and why.

I thank everyone who has contributed real engineering to our corner of the net. Your contributions are respected.

[brett]

Hi.
I think that over the last year or two a tone of "instant gratification" has crept in.  Lots of people don't seem to do a search before they make a post.  They just ask "I've heard about the X?  Is it a good distortion?  Should I build it?".

There's no search, no application in mind (ACDC vs ABBA), no indications of electronics knowledge or skill.  Much of our effort seems to be spent putting these questions back to lazy participants in the forum (or just telling them to look at geofex).  I'm starting to prefer to answer the genuinely naive questions, and bypass the ones that just seem lazy.

Thanks Gus for your contributions.

[Gus]

Peter

everyone I was hoping to maybe help a little.  What I mean running a business is hard work, in the USA Liability is a big issue, 9 volt effects might not be that bad but when you plug into the wall I believe you realy need to protect yourself.

If someone can make money at effects thats luck or just plain hard work.  I tend to believe hard work more than luck.

Over the years some people have learned a lot IMO and that is very cool.

This place as well as others has a lot of give and take.  I am suprised that Mark,R.G. Jack(very early days people) etc are still around and posting this is nice.

Aron, Peter it is nice that this place is still around.

[chunks717]

hello............a note from the other side.......(of knowledge or lack there of)
First of all, I must say a hearty thank you to the folks that keep this site up
and running.........I have been a HEAVY reader for a few years, and almost never
post a question, because almost anything I need is already here (or there, or at GEO)
It has been my intention to learn electronic enginering for most of my "adult" life.
I am now in my 2nd quarter as an EE student, and it is in a very large way, due
to the time I have spent with this "hobby", and specificaly on this forum.
I have been poking my 2 bits in on some of the "naive" questions partly to contribute
to something that has given me so much, and also to relive some of the burdon
put on the 'initiated'.  I am quite aware of my current level of understanding.
please dont feel that all the 808 vs. FF topics are a total reflection
of the freshman class.......seeing NAMM photographs of some of the people I have
read like religion, made me feel like I was meeting people whom I know well, tho I have
never had a direct interaction with most of them..... ...enough sentiment.

I am sure I am not alone In saying thank you all for you time, effort, and patience.

[gez]

One thing that I seem to see is a few people modding effects for money .  And then I read some of the posts.  I hope they don't work on tube amps or anything that plugs in the wall before reading about liabilty

Most of what I've seen is just people advertising to work on pedals, and the mods are simple so I don't think safety would be an issue.  It would concern me, however, if people are working on amps without having the necessary experience/education.

Personally, I've never modded anything for anyone but I understand there's a market for it.  Before I got into doing all this myself I would have paid anyone who could have made my 'duff' pedals sound better.  As far as amps go, I would refuse to do repairs for anyone.  I work on my own amp and that's it.  Although I (just about!) know what I'm doing, my concentration is so poor these days I'm a liability...

[brett]

Hi.
I'm one of many who probably doesn't pay enough attention to detail, and probably creates some risks.

However, qualified designers could help us all by including basic safety nets.  One that bugs me is the valve amps and valve pedals that fail to include a bleeder resistor (costing 3c) for the B+, so that a few seconds after switching off there's no longer a lethal voltage on the B+.  When a lack of bleeder accompanied by B+ caps that are WAY too large for the current pull (2 x 33uF for 1mA current draw in one popular design), a pedal can remain dangerous for a long, long time.

cheers

[petemoore]

  I was working on an Accoustic Amp, and noticed as I was testing for voltage drop for safety, that a red LED became dim and went out as the voltage dropped below around 30v...it was inside the amp, near all of the HV stuff.
  Not that I want to influence legislation, but a little addendum and a note about how that works [wait until the red, [as in STOP sign] LED is no longer lit...and you've checked that the voltage has dropped below 30V before proceeding with anything inside the amp.
  I think it's a 'funny' subject, and a 'touchy one [no pun intended]...not much about bleeder resistor usage is really standing out in any form...I had to get an amp kit before figureing out what resistor and how to use it to drop B+ quickly...I think 'net-ers' are leary about posting anything about bleeding techniques and how to be religiously methodical about the ritual of resistor bleeding voltage down to a safe level.
  ...for purposes of discussion...
  I use a Bright Safety Yellow Wire with an alligator clip on one end, the bleeder resistor [10w 22k] on the other, shrink wrap over where I've soldered the resistor to the wire, and...
  Wrap the yellow wire around the power switch...this reliably reminds me to attend to the bleeder resistor whenever the switch is used.
  I still like the RED LED 'safety signal' that lights near the HV when HV is present...I just haven't figured out how to do it.

[goosonique]

Well i get text messages on me phone just like some of those morons who are darn lazy to actually go and do a search and learn a thing or two !!
Kids just wanna be spoonfed nowadays...

This forum definately has tons and tons info and has been my tone bible... thanks to those who invested here for love of noise.

[Mark Hammer]

Hello Mr. Smalley,

Nice to see you back again.  Hope it turns into something lasting, with just the usual sorts of absences (vacations, the flu, busy periods, etc.).

I also hope you have a better scanner now than you had 5 years ago!    All those scanned pencil drawings of yours that I have are too riddled with aliasing for these failing eyes!

I'm sure we'll chat again, but for now, cheers.

Mark

[psiico]

It's not just this hobby, I'm also into reef aquarium keeping.  It boggles my mind how often you'll see a post on a forum asking "I want to setup a reef tank, what do I need to know?"  While having a reef isn't difficult there is a lot to know and it's not the kind of information you can get in a post in a forum.  When I started reefing I spent a couple of months reading every website I could find, then I bought a tank and asked questions as needed on forums but that wasn't much since I was already informed.  This hobby is a little different since your pedals won't die if you make a mistake (well, I guess they do, but they can fixed, a dead coral or fish is dead) but still people should make some effort to educate themselves instead of expecting everyone else to do it for them.  I say that after my stupid post asking about MN3207 IC's, lol.  Hypocrite.

[no one ever]

asking Yngwie Malmsteen "i just got a guitar, what should i do now?" is analogous to asking the forum gurus here "why do these things work"

[markm]

First of all,
I am quite new to these parts of the net.
But, I have lurked here for about a year and a half trying to absorb as much knowledge
as possible from you kind fellas.
I would like to say a Big Thank You to all the knowledgable folk that hang here and answer posts.
This forum is a valuable resource for those of us who want to learn.....even though I am probably much older
than some of you, I really admire some of the talent that is here.
I started doing DIY 'cause I wanted better equipment that is available through normal music outlets.
And now I have MUCH better than store bought effects thanks mainly to this forum.
So here I am, a Country Tele Player that builds pedals as a hobby.
That's what it is for me.....a hobby.
Again, Thanks to all of you

[amz-fx]

Hi Gus, good to see you back here...  don't I see you occasionally at Groupdiy?   

As with any business, there are people who are more trained and knowledgeable about the subject than others...  some modders had experience before getting into pedals -- Keeley, for example, used to work repairing video equipment, but there are others who are just using info they find on the net without having any clue about the details behind it..

I saw a post a couple of months ago on this forum where someone said that there were no new ideas for pedals....  which is totally untrue, as I'm sure you know. But most of the people who are working on new ideas no longer post them (for whatever reason)... 

Real life sometimes intervenes and I don't come to this forum for a few weeks at a time, especially during the summer months.  Occasionally the day job demands too much and I just don't feel like reading forums at night when I get home...  but I'm always testing pedals and designing new projects.

Come around more often!

regards, Jack

[burnt fingers]

The Internet has made lots of great information readily available forlots of people.  Unfortunately not everyone knows what to do with that information.  I have lurked on this site, geofx,and ampage for about three years.  I just recently joined this forum and I am quite a noob in my opinion. I've learned a great deal from all of the people here and elswhere but I still have a long way to go.   I see posts on other forums that truly scare me. People who have no electronics experience are talking about modding their amp in one way or another.  It is truly disturbing that some guy could cook himself simpy because he read somewher that performing a mod to his amp was as easy as changing one or two caps.  The mod may be that easy but the lethal voltage in the amp is not mentioned very often and if it is it is usually followed up with " i think you just use an aligator clip to the chassis to drain the voltage."  Not a very clear instruction on how not to kill yourself.

Scott

[Gilles C]

Yeah, I remember you Gus from the same years I was also more active here...

Btw, the Instant Gratification thing is present in many domains these years. A couple of years ago, I decided to learn how to airbrush to be able to paint and decorate the stompboxes I built the way I wanted. So I've been on a few airbrush forums since them to learn about that.

And I see that question too often over there also. "I just bought an airbrush, and I want to paint this and that for money, show me what I need to know..."

The fact is that you can't learn in a week what normally takes many years to learn.

   Not that I want to influence legislation, but a little addendum and a note about how that works [wait until the red, [as in STOP sign] LED is no longer lit...and you've checked that the voltage has dropped below 30V before proceeding with anything inside the amp.
....

Pete, on every guitar amps (or electrical appliances anyway), there is a sign that says that only a qualified technicien should open it or try to repair it. That's what the legislation ask to the builders.

But you did the right thing when you learned how to deal with that by getting a guitar amp kit. That was the thing to do.

And it's not only for HV circuits that we need to know how to deal with.

It reminds me of when I was repairing comunicating systems in schools 30 years ago. There was a school where we had to replace many ICs on the electronic cards quite regularly. It happened that a maintenance guy, who was qualified to work on electrical systems (I think...) was testing our equipment before calling us for a repair when they had small problems with it. He was moving a screw driver on the connectors pins of the circuits (and there was a lot...) to check if the power was present on the cards. If he was seeing sparks while doing that, everything was ok for him. But by doing that, he was changing small problems into big ones...

It was just to say that with everything, we need to know a minimum of things before we can work on it.

Gilles

[Brian Marshall]

I worked in electrical distribution for 10 years.  Primarilly we sold equipment to wholesale outfits, but in the end all of the stuff ended up in the hands of contractors.  Most of the stuff we sold was 480 volts and higer.

Our company policy was to never advise the contractor/electrician on installation or use of a product.  They are electricians, they are supposed to know this stuff.  More often than not they didnt.  I was amazed that most of them lacked the basic understanding of ohms law, and use terms like 'potential' and 'load' with out understanding what they truly mean. 

Even people in my end of the business were fairly ignorant.  Most of the job was just to memorize ratings and prices.  You didnt really have to know what any of it meant.  After a couple years of working there, i somehow found my self the top sales person at the company at the age of 25.  I never went to school for electrical engineering, but my dad was an EE at intel for years as well as a few other places.  I had vague understanding of electricity, but I didnt feel it was adequet.  So that year, i went to my dads house and stole a bunch of his engineering books.  It was the best thing i ever did for my self.  My job dealt mainly with power distribution, and not low voltage electronics, however it did lay the foundation for it. 

I have gained most of what i know from reading books.  One great thing is that i didnt have to learn a bunch of stuff that i dont need to know, but at the same time I think in a class room you would be more likely to learn how to overcome common problems, and perhaps learn a few different ways to make a+b=c and know the bennefits and drawbacks of each approach, rather than re-read 3 books to make a decision.  Then again, my dad is 63 years old now, and left the electronics industry 15 years ago.  He doesnt remember a lot of the basics.  I had to re-educate him on op-amps...  Then again he probably hadnt looked at an opamp since the early 70's.

I have modded, and repaired pedals for money in the past, but dont do it anymore.  Primarilly because i dont have time.  The one thing i always hated about it, especially repairs, I never repaired the same pedal twice.  It was always something new, and on one occasion i spent two days on a pedal for $25 because i thought i had isolated the problem, but it turned out to have a few others.  I had never used the pedal before so i really had no idea what it was supposed to sound like.  It was a home made tremelo pedal from the 70's which had been resold on ebay.  The bypass switch was bad, but it ended up that one of the electrolytic caps was bad, and there was a trim pot in it that i never really figured out what it did.  The trace side of the board was heavilly oxydized, and when i tried to clean it off some of the traces came off the board.

[Noplasticrobots]

I have to admit that when I first got interested in this hobby, I said to myself "If I get good, I could probably make some extra money selling these on the side..." Mind you, I never wanted to make a business out of it, just for extra cash here or there.

Now I know I probably never will, and I'm more than happy with that. After spending the hours it takes to assemble a pedal, I don't want to give it up. I just look at it and think "Wow, I made this!" then I get online and look at other people's work and go "yikes....I made that? And I thought I was gonna make some side money?!"

I'm grateful to the people at this forum who have answered all my questions, especially in the beginning. I still don't have a clue as to what I'm really doing, but at least I occupy less forum space because a lot of my questions have been answered by those long standing members. Thanks again.