Some non-technical questions about stompbox building

[icurays1]

Hey, there everyone.  I've been a silent kind-of floater on this wonderful forum for about the last year or so, reading all I possibly can, trying to get my brain around some of the tech stuff - I've been trying to avoid the noob status by just trying to read up.  I've been slow to jump into doing some builds, but i've been acumulating the tools I need to get rolling on it.  Now - i've got a few questions, and I'm hoping some of you might be able to offer me some insights.  Thanks for having such a great community!!

Okay, question #1 - Do any of you more seasoned electronics guys have back or neck problems?  I mean, shoot...I spent a half hour stooped over a goodwill amp salvaging parts and i had a serious crick in my neck

haha, alright...a serious one now, legal issues -  At what point does a circuit design become one's own?  It seems to me there are a lot of (rather simple) "mods" on classic circuits - fuzz face mods, ts808 - i mean, if you took a tubescreamer, and simply changed the diode clipping section to produce more gain, are you now the 'owner' of that circuit?  What happens when you try to sell "clones" of classic circuits?    Now i know a lot of you real expereinced guys design stuff from the ground up, and thats cool, I feel like i could eventually do that myself after a little more reading- but for the most part, it seems like all circuits (espically distortion circuits) are very very similar if not practically the same - just slight variations on some form of diode/transistor clipping.  What if you accidently designed a circuit that was almost identical to one already on the market (and tried to sell it)?

I hope that was clear enough.

Here's a question for ZVex and the like (btw, zvex, your boxes rock - As soon as i can justify the $$, i'm gettin one):     How did you get your start as a stomp-box building business?  Have you been doing this for a long, long time, and decided to turn a hobby into a business?   See, I'd love to just build stompboxes as just a hobby, but I've been way interested in getting into it as a business, as well -  i don't know if it could work as easily as i think it would, like build a little run of 15 or 20 boxes and try to ebay them, i mean - is it practical?   I have a good handle on what i'd have to do from a business perspective, with licences and keeping books and whatnot - my mom ran my dad's construction business for 20 years.

Okay, last question i think:    I'm in college.  The university i go to (western washington university) has a fairly good program in electronic engineering - although the people in it are extremely boring, and the professors are equally as dull.  Is is worth my precious class time to go all the way with that degree?  They offer a minor as well, which i've considered - but is my time better suited in another field, like business, or design..?  I feel like a lot of this electronic stuff i could learn by reading and doing.

Well, that's all - thanks ahead of time for any responses! 

Nick



 

[Unbeliever]

Okay, last question i think:    I'm in college.  The university i go to (western washington university) has a fairly good program in electronic engineering - although the people in it are extremely boring, and the professors are equally as dull.  Is is worth my precious class time to go all the way with that degree?  They offer a minor as well, which i've considered - but is my time better suited in another field, like business, or design..?  I feel like a lot of this electronic stuff i could learn by reading and doing.

I'll leave the rest for others but .... I, personally, would NEVER plan my college/university education around a career in building stompboxes, and probably not even in analog electronics. EE degrees are so much 'overkill' for pedals I've wondered why on earth a degree-qualified EE would do 'just' pedals - the emphasis these days is digital, as most 'real world' requirements are in the digital arena. Do you like the engineering side of things the most? Would you be happy doing digital/RF/high-speed design? If yes to both of these, then perhaps a 'major' in EE would be fine for you. Personally, I've used the 'reading and doing' approach and it has worked fairly well, although it is slower and a much more 'patchy' way of learning than a structured course.

These days, no matter what profession you go into, make sure you develop the 'higher' skills as well - networking, learning to learn (and re-learn - even the 'best' in each profession refresh the basics from time to time) and re-educate yourself about new developments in your field ..... become a known 'expert', blog, help people out via 'real life' and the 'net' ... all these things will make you of more value to potential employers, and will give you more freedom in your career and work choices. Building stompboxes could be a part of this too... lots of people here do this as a hobby and semi-profession, as well as holding down a 'day' job and career. Most of all, do what you can to make most of the time enjoyable, or leading to more enjoyment.

[icurays1]

Good insight - that's pretty much what I figured, although if i got myself a 4-year degree in electronics i wouldn't just be building analogue stompboxes.  I'd be trying to design a (better) digital audio system - that acctually sounds good and is easy to use.  I think there's a lot of potential in computer-based effects processing (like eventide, or soft-synth/asio effect processing).   but they're all so hard to use!!  If that kind of depth and options were available in something as easy to use as a stompbox or amplifier, i'd be way happy.   I also wouldn't mind expanding out from boxes into amps, and potentially the other end of music - sound reproduction (hi-fi speakers, amps, dsp, etc)

I totally dig what you're saying about the 'higher' skills though - its been really frustrating trying to stick with college when everyone around me is saying 'education is good, but what is really important is your people skills, networking skills, and attitude - all of which they dont really offer a class in.  And yes, learing how to learn is the best thing anyone can learn...because then you can learn more!!   

haha thanks, man

[Unbeliever]

I think there's a lot of potential in computer-based effects processing (like eventide, or soft-synth/asio effect processing).   but they're all so hard to use!!  If that kind of depth and options were available in something as easy to use as a stompbox or amplifier, i'd be way happy.

Easy of use generally decreases with number of features - it's really, really HARD to design a GUI / human interface that allows ready and understandable access to functionality without, at the same time, making stuff 'complex'.  This is a good site covering design snafus and more:
http://www.asktog.com/index.html
(yes, it's biased a little towards software - but if you're going to do EE you'll need to do/know some programming anyways so)

I know a bunch of people who have degrees and still don't know how to 'learn' - they don't keep up with new stuff, and therefore make themselves candidates for being replaced once day. Just keeping up with current trends in software development (which is my main gig) is a huge take, but necessary to be 'current'. It's also - mostly - fun.

Oh, if you can 'get good' at designing and implementing human / machine interfaces - or better still, 'get good' at talking about it and telling other people how to 'get good' - you'll be setup financially (if that is important to you) and personal-satisfaction wise. If you like this area, that is .. and if not, there's plenty of others to 'get good' at. eg RG has 'gotten good' at audio-based stuff (there could well be more he does, but this is what is 'visible').

[icurays1]

Yeah, i've thought about computer science, too - or some combination of both.  I can imagine how difficult it would be to design a GUI/human interface that isn't confusing and annoying - espicially with lots of features.  I personally love fiddling with real knobs - and don't like having to learn endless menu hierarchies.  But still, if some combination of the vast possibilities of computers and the classic tone of analouge circuitry could be had - successfully - it could really open up some new posibilites for music.  I know some amp and effect makers have really tried to do this - but Im just not sure it's got there yet.

Of course, right now, what im more interested in knowing...is if it's feasible to start a business selling stompboxes.  Is it an oversaturated market?  Can money be made?  I've got a smidge of creativity in me, and i could probably do something new and slightly exciting...

I dont wanna be that schmuck that's trying to turn a cool hobby into a crappy business oppurtunity, though - more just a way to make some extra (*cough beer*) money.  and be a honest and good-standing businessman.  i dont know, its a weird balance i'm shootin for.

Thanks again...

[ErikMiller]

Sure it's possible to make money building and selling stompboxes. I do.

I also have another closely-related revenue stream in amp repair.

It's pretty simple to try it and see if you like it. Do as you say and build up a couple dozen and sell them and see if you like it. If you like it, and it looks like you can make some money, find a way to make it happen.

If you have a grip on the administrative end, you've got something that most people who try it do not at first.

The market is not saturated as long as you can come up with something that a significant number of people will want to buy. If you jump in with a tube screamer clone, you'll find the market soft, unless you can sell them to people who wouldn't otherwise be interested in them. You don't have to own the market, just take a big enough niche.

[ErikMiller]

Oh, and about the legal issues, well, the first Marshall amps were pretty close to being copies of the Fender Bassman. Very few (if any) lawsuits have come from stompbox copying.

Musical electronics is full of products that were copied from products that came out of component manufacturers' application notes.

The issue is not so much legal as it is personal. If your product doesn't have anything that someone can't get from another product (be it sound, looks, price, reliability, whatever), then why bother?

So far, my product line is mostly the Eastwood Guitars of fuzz: I came out with updated versions of great pedals that had been discontinued by their original manufacturers and that had not been cloned to my satisfaction.

Having built a reputation and some business relationships doing that, I am in a better position to draw interest in more original circuits.

[calpolyengineer]

Does your school have manufacturing engineering? Thats what I'm doing right now and it focuses on the building side more than the design side (but has plenty of theory involved as well). I have taken classes in EE, CPE, mechanical E, and all sorts of E's but manufacturing has given me the most insight to practical applications. We basically have to tell other engineers that the stuff they design might look good on paper, but won't get anywhere if you build it. The only thing with manufacturing is that it is so broad, they do everything from metal casting to robotic electronics assembly to designing packaging for goods ie cardboard boxes (thats really a class I have to take).

-Joe

[gez]

The university i go to (western washington university) has a fairly good program in electronic engineering - although the people in it are extremely boring, and the professors are equally as dull. 

And you think we're any different? 

[icurays1]

haha good point, gez.  I guess I can just relate to you stompbox folks because we speak at least one language in common - music.  I mean...thats what i'm into this for, not so much the gear-head side.

Yes, calpoly, wwu's got a manufacturing eng. program - a pretty substantial one, at that.  I've considered taking some classes in it, i've got the easy 100-level boring engineering stuff out of the way and next year i'm going to take the fun classes - machine metal processes, intro to cnc, etc. - and the intro electronics classes. It'd be pretty groovy if i could get my hands in the cnc room we have here and do some cool aluminum boxes or something - or use our water jet cnc to do some designs, or whatever other crazy half-a-million-dollar machines we have.  Oh, and yeah, we have packaging design classes too haha laame

Erik - thats totally cool that you make some $ on stompboxes, and thanks for the insights on the legal crap - I've been pretty worried that that would be my downfall, that i would have to design my own circuits from scratch, somehow.  I guess i just need to start building some stuff and fiddling around!!


Oh, by the way i have another little question, if anyone bothers to read this all the way down here -  I was looking at a guy's pedals on eBay the other day and he claimed that using printed boards instead of perf "sounds better and avoids radio interference"  is there any truth to that?   I'm sure if i got into any sort of production envrionment i'd be doing printed instead of perf, but i just thought i'd see if that was true...
thanks

[Alex C]

I was looking at a guy's pedals on eBay the other day and he claimed that using printed boards instead of perf "sounds better and avoids radio interference"  is there any truth to that?   I'm sure if i got into any sort of production envrionment i'd be doing printed instead of perf, but i just thought i'd see if that was true...
thanks

http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/pt-to-pt/pt-to-pt.htm

This is about amps specifically, but it addresses the same issues.

[icurays1]

Yeah, I read that whole thing once.  Great article.

I was more specifically thinking about the difference between radioshack-style pre-drilled perf board and a pcb - not nessecarily point to point wiring.  I dont think there are any stompboxes that are wired point to point - totally impractical. 

~Nick

[MartyMart]

I wish you all the best with the rest of your education and your great interest in "stompbox" development
Seems like you have a good "attitude" to developing your various skills ... which is V- cool .

There are some people with very unique design's, which are unlike anything else, but on the whole
most things tend to be based on either "old" designs ( improvements ) or Data sheet circuit examples
and basic "building blocks" for boost/opamp feedback/ tonestack/ low pass network etc etc ..
As soon as you combine and change some of these circuit "blocks" and make your own board
and schemo ..... it's yours  and may well sound "unique" from your efforts

The few successful circuits that I've made are from those same "blocks" and from doing a LOT of
reading and coming to this fine place for the last 2.5 years ... there's a wealth of great info and
great people here, some that I would call "friends" without a doubt.
My little opamp and Jfet ciruits may not be "world beating" or technically wonderful, but they make
great "noises" and work well, they've also just found there way onto two Albums a Film soundtrack
and a few are "on tour" in Europe as we speak  !!

..... will I ever make Millions from them ...... I doubt it, but what great fun !!

Regards,

Marty.

[Mark Hammer]

1) You'll never be rich from making fuzzboxes.  Indeed, none of the people here who have their own line of pedals are getting "rich" from it.  Erik's pedals have been very favourably reviewed and he himself talks about "another revenue stream".  I have a buddy whose pedals have also been favourably reviewed, and he's making some decent money from sales (in the hundreds of units), both on this continent and others, but he has no plans to quit his day job just yet.  Nope, the people who make a decent living out of *just* pedals are businesspeople, plain and simple.  I don't mean that in a pejorative way.  I mean that in the sense that they think about their business in a strategic way, and build it AS a business, brick by brick, that just happens to involve pedals, balancing out what the market demands and what their heart wishes for.  There is a whole lot more to making a living at this than merely cool sounds.  There is picking your market, and price-points, and working out distribution, and keeping abreast of the competition and identifying niches to be filled.  Oh, and there is a whole lot of going without.  I don't mean to be dismissive, but very few of the people you'll find here whose products may have graced the pages of Vintage Guitar, the tables at NAMM, or the the boards at H-C, use it to support a family.  Perhaps that is because many are musicians and maybe quite young, but more than likely it is just too marginal a business to even think about having a family and space for them to grow in.  It *can* be done, but like I say, you have to be a businessman first and a pedal-builder second. 

Think about all the businesses you have seen in your region, whether restaurants, clubs, specialty shops, etc., that came and went because, despite their coolness factor, there was no solidbusiness plan in place.  There has to be a reason for the business to exist beyond simply how much fun it is to be around the type of product or service provided.  We had a terrific blues club open up near us that seemed to be months in the preparation of the physical premises.  It billed itself as a club built BY musicians FOR musicians.  Within 8 months is had closed.  The lady at the bakery two doors down had a very simple summary of it.  How can you stay in business when you book acts that cost you $3000 a night and the club seats *maybe* 80?   I came to know the woman who was co-owner of the club via our mutual involvement in the nearby elementary school.  She's pleasant but lets her enthusiasm run away with her.  It simply wasn't a well-worked out business plan, and she never allowed it to blossom organically.

Obviously some people DO make a go of it, but they have a good head on their shoulders, and started from the point of having multiple revenue streams.  Just keep in mind the lessons of the old Texas Instruments home computer.  Sometimes, even when you have a *great* product, timing is everything.  Even having all the zeal and chops in the world, and a great product, moving into a market that has already become very crowded can be very precarious.  there always has to be a good reason for your product line and business to exist.

2) I have a good friend who is a psych prof at WWU.

[icurays1]

Wow, guys, thanks!   That's a good bit of advice, and I'm glad I've asked these questions well before getting into this seriously.

Honestly, i'm really hoping this wouldnt be a career for me.  I couldn't really justify spending a lifetime building little boxes that make funny noises - not that i think the world of electrified music isn't intrinsically valuble, I just have a feeling that if i woke up one day at 55 years old and all i had done was build guitar electronics...i'd be kind of pissed.

On that note, i'm getting more and more excited about  acctually getting into doing some design - i'm tired of just thinking about it!!

you've all offered some great advice, and i'll make sure i remember it all - and im sure i'll be back with lots of questions and photos and whatnot.

oh, and I've got other little business ideas that i'm going to try to run with while i'm in college, too - i'm possibly going to have a big shop next year where i live, so i'll for sure be busy with tons of projects..

anyway, thanks again!  You guys are great.
Nick

[skiraly017]

To answer some of your questions...

1) Do I get neck and back pain? Yes. If I pull a pedal building bender (usually 5 to 8 hours a day, both Saturday and Sunday), by Sunday evening I'm in the hot tub and chasing a Vicoden with a margarita.

2) The legalities of it all. Check out Is it okay to clone? by RG Keen. Very informative.

3) How did I get started? There was a circuit I thought sounded great. I built it, showed a guy I knew at a local store and he thought it was great so I built him one for the store. Dropped it off on a Saturday morning and that same afternoon I got a call saying "We just sold it I need another". So I built another one, dropped it of on a Saturday morning and the following Monday got the same call. Then they ordered two at a time. Then a couple of people (studio guys) who bought it wanted backups, so the store ordered four pedals. Then, a boutique pedal distributor from Italy who was in town for NAMM bought a pedal, called me and ordered 30. I'm still stunned.

I have no illusions about getting rich from this. It would be nice to see an annual revenue like Fulltone's but I don't see it happening. The pedals I build are not original designs. They're classics that I really like and might have been tweaked a time or two. I freely admit that I am not a pedal designer. I'm just a guy who's having fun while making a little extra money on the side (all reported to the IRS of course). Is the market saturated? Apparently not. Pedal geeks (myself included) can't stand knowing that there's something out there that they haven't tried. It doesn't matter is they already have five Tube Screamer variants, there's a sixth one out there that just might be "THE ONE". As for the business aspect of it, if you really want to hear my horror stories and learn what NOT to do shoot me a PM.

Good luck if you decide to persue this. It can be fun.

[Mark Hammer]

I grew up partly in Montreal, and during my undergraduate days I lived in the largely Greek neighbourhood downtown.  One of the things you could find in abundance in that neighbourhood were places that would make made-to-measure shirts and made-to-measure shoes and boots.  These weren't coutouriers or fashionistas.  They weren't planning on getting wealthy, just on working hard and making an honest living doing what they knew how to do.  They were simple tailors and shoemakers; guys who made clothes.  They might be downstairs from a barber and next door to a bakery.  What they made cost a little more, but you knew that once you paid up front for the pattern and measurements, that everything you bought from them thereafter would fit and fit well, unlike off-the-rack stuff you might buy at the chain stores.  If the shirt had no tight seams or stress points, chances were good the shirt would last a long time.  Same thing for the shoes.

In some respects, all those guys who are local legends in their city for making pedals for the local musicians are a lot like these shirt and shoe-makers.  They may not be making anything terribly original, but they are providing an honest service to people who want something made specially for them, or want to have the pride of having something specially made.  That's good honest work, and like the shirt-maker who charges more, so too should these builders charge more for the custom work, regardless of whether it is original or a clone.

Where things get a little different, and maybe twisted, is when the local craftsman starts to think national and international.  That's the seductive trap of the net and web-sites that can be seen by anyone anywhere.  The shirt-maker has his local clientele, and that's it.  He has no pretense to taking on major shirt-companies.  Maybe there are customers from out of town, but there is certainly no move to go after clients elsewhere.  Once in a while you get a Full-tone or a Z-Vex, but maybe the way to think of it is as a local craftsman who makes made-to-measure stuff for people who don't mind spending a little more.  That and the other revenue streams from letting pant-seams out and repairing amps and fixing heels will pay the rent.

[icurays1]

Makes me want a tailored shirt.

I understand what you mean, though - and hey, i dont think there are any boutique effect makers in my town (which happens to have a lot of bands).  Maybe i'll find a niche after all.

And, build other stuff to pay the rent...furniture and whatnot (my other hobby)

Thanks, mark
~Nick

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Oh, and yeah, we have packaging design classes too haha laame

If you think package design is 'laame', I advise you to give up any thought of commercial success.
Anywhere, really.

[Mark Hammer]

I suspect icurays' comment was more targetting disproportionate emphasis on certain aspects of packaging to the downplaying of content/functionality.  There is a thread on Lounge-OT here concerning a line of pedals whose distinctive feature is the silhouette of identified naked women.  Perhaps that's the sort of thing he meant or was alluding to.

To my mind, "packaging" can mean several different things, I think you'll agree:

1) The "coolness" factor, like ....well....silhouettes of naked women or strategically-placed LEDs (nipples, dog eyes, etc), snazzy paint, silly knobs, and once in a while tasteful hand-painting of icons to sub for legending (  ).  There is the case (think Roger Mayer for spaceships, Moogerfooger for nice wood panels), and the name (think Electro-Harmonix and DOD).

2) The functionality factor, such as the layout and usability of the controls provided.  Little extra touches like additional switches or jacks that let you do more.  My buddy Tim's Phase 90 clone has an output level pot that lets the user get a boost in effect mode or use effect mode for a volume drop if the pedal is part of the rhythm-guitar tone, and apparently he's gotten lots of very positive feedback about the feature from professionals who find that to be the icing on the cake.  The little tubular tube dome that Ton implemented for tube-based effects of his own and eventually E-H is a terrific little packaging innovation that permits safe use and easy access to tubes in floor units.  So are the battery compartments that some pedals have.  Loved the little push-in buttons on the side of the Tone Core pedals.

3) Build quality and quality feel.  Solid jacks.  Pots that are smooth and nicely damped.  Controls that provide dialing specificity where it is needed.  Cases and stompswitches that don't feel like they will break easily.  Switching that gives good tactile feedback.  A reputation for low noise or low current consumption (or both).  The difference between a Goodrich or Ernie Ball volume pedal and...all others.  Basically, that "Volvo" feeling...but in a pedal.

Sometimes, packaging is part of a product line's or company's "brand".  Some of the companies mentioned already have a particular "brand" with respect to packaging.  In some instances, they are trying to break out of their brand or establish additional brands to attract different market niches.  For instance, without implying anything negative, E-H had a "brand" for decades in which they produced pedals for the people.  Simple folded sheet-metal cases, as few controls as necessary, low prices, cutting edge.  A whole other segment of the market, however, is being approached with things like the H.O.G., Bi-Filter, NY2 compressor, Flanger Hoax, Holiest Grail, and the recent Looper pedal.  Here the target audience is fundamentally different than the kids who gravitate towards the Small Stone and Big Muff.  Boss has a similar strategy in terms ofthe DS-1/HM-2 crowd and the Looper Station crowd.  DOD/Digitech has done the same thing.

Yep, packaging matters, though some parts of it matter less than others, depending on who you are aiming for.  There are, I imagine, purchasers of the MXR Wylde pedal or EVH flanger/phaser whose attention is focussed more on the appearance and coolness factor than on the presence absence of control or even build quality.  Dare I say it, I would imagine purchasers of pedals with...ahem...silhouettes of naked adult film stars are less concerned with the control complement than they are about...other...things (two of them in particular ).