Build Report/Sound Clip - SSS+Condor

[mydementia]

As many of you may recall, I've been having a heck of a time getting anything good to come out of my Condor builds (low output).  I finally decided to build a Tonemender to add some clean gain to my signal - but I didn't stop there...I was curious about the Speaker Saturation Simulator too...
Bottom line - I think this setup will work VERY well for recording.  The link is to a clip I recorded using:
Godin Exit22 HB->Dr. Boogey->Tonemender->Bypass/Condor/SSS->EMU 0404 sound card in CuBaseLE

I didn't get too creative - learned 'My Own Summer' (Deftones) last night so it was fresh in my mind (fingers?). 
The first segment bypasses the Condor/SSS completely - second segment uses the Condor - third segment uses the Condor and the SSS (SSS dials pegged).  Absolutely zero post processing was done.

LINK: http://www.freewebs.com/mydementia/DIY%5FStompboxes/Condor/CondorSSSDemo.mp3

Is the SSS doing what it's supposed to do?  MartyMart?  Sounds like it adds more grit...

Fun stuff.
Mike

[MartyMart]

Nice one

Yup, I like what the SSS adds a lot, its a very soft drive ( all those Ge's ! )
Though I have mine the other way around ! ( I know, I know )
Input -> SSS -> Condor -> Output
I just preferred it that way, both are switchable in one box.
The SSS can warm up/sweeten a slightly harsh sounding driven input, but
you have to watch carefully the levels, so as not to push the SSS too hard.
At the "desk" I'm rolling off some low end and adding a touch of top, around
6khz to 8khz .... find the Condor a little bottom heavy for my taste.
I may go in and sort that at some point, but better to have it and be able to
remove, than the other way round !

The link has to be pasted into a new window, otherwise it just opens this thread again
Sounds like the added SSS demo gets a bit too overloaded or the input to your card
was overloaded, mine dies not get that harsh/crunchy

Glad that you got a result ..... finally  !

MM.

[mydementia]

Hmm...I listened to the demo this morning in my good headphones (they were upstairs when I made the recording - yes, I'm that lazy) - definitely clipping something.  Maybe what I really need is a 'Digital recording for dummies' sort of tutorial - Cubase has WAY too many options!  Recommended site/book?  I also think it would have been useful to level each demo evenly so character would have been easier to compare (instead of character+volume).  I'm still learning...

MM-I took your advice and put the SSS in front of my Condor too... I'm definitely going to futz with it more when I get home from work today.  Do you use the SSS as a stomp box or just for recording?  I used two DPDT toggles on this combo unit (fit easily into a 1590BB...a 125B would have been more of a challenge!) - but the soft drive of the Ge diodes might just add subtle nuances to some otherwise clean passages...hmmm...

By the way - the SSS was my first Veroboard build - interesting...I've been perfing or buying/having made boards since I started this addiction.  It was almost as easy as using a purchased board (no running leads from point to point to point).  I found a bunch of Hughes aircraft company Ge diodes (dated 1967!) at my local surplus store...the number escapes me, but they came up under the NTE sub for the 1N60s.

Fun stuff.  I'll keep working at it and if I can figure out how to stop the digital clipping, I'll replace the demo file. 
Mike

[MartyMart]

Hi Mike,
With the "saturation" control on the SSS at minimum, you shouldn't get any
colouration from the Ge diode ladder, unless you drive it VERY hard from whatever
comes up front of it. ( watch those levels ! )

I've used it a lot for recording lately and I also like it after my "POD" with the Pod's
speaker sim turned off .... much better tone IMHO

With digital recordings, you have to remember that your input level needn't be very high
it's not like tape, where you have a definate "background noise" threashold, its much more
forgiving ( unless your input signal is inherantly noise containing )
So if your "meters" on the software are at -10Db or so dont panic and DONT push them
so they are "almost" in the red !!
When a signal "clips" digitally it's an awful "square wave" noise, not like an analog desk or
tape machine, which are much softer clipping and quite nice !
Try that, just back off the input some and see how it sounds coming back.
Also watch levels between various pedals and the SSS condor, to keep things from getting
too "dirty".
I do a lot of guitar recording and production and I very rarely record VERY distorted guitar
it's normally much more subtle, as you can "add" later but you can never "take it off" later !!

Cheers,

Marty.

[mydementia]

Good to know Marty...I can't wait to get home and try it (stupid day job getting in the way...).

When I'm recording into Cubase (vocal and guitar), I usually bring the level up until my biggest/heaviest notes hit the yellow part of the 'meter'.  It sounds like I need to simply back this off so nothing goes 'yellow' and increase volume in a post process.  Maybe this is the key to why all my recent recordings sound bad!!
About recording distorted...do you record clean, then reamp?  or do you just use VST plugins for distortion and effects? 

My best recordings came from my Vox Tonelab desktop unit (SP/DIF output).  Unfortunately, I can't create a clean/transparent enough amp model that will allow me to use my DIY effect chain and still sound decent.  I end up tinkering for hours trying to find something close enough to get my idea across.  I tried the PODXt before the Vox and couldn't find any 'organic' feeling tones...however, I know many musicians who simply love it.  So many options, so little free time!

Thanks for all your feedback!
Mike

[MartyMart]

Sometimes I record the amp/simulator input AND a clean DI input at the same time.
So you have a "clean" version of the part, which you can either "re-amp" or put through
some plugins later on if the part needs a different sound.
Well worth trying out

I do record "distorted" parts, but not too heavy ... for the above reasons.

Cheers,

Marty.

[petemoore]

  I'm getting a link loop to this page ...
  What is "SSS"? is there a SSSChematic I can check out?

[pyrop]

  I'm getting a link loop to this page ... Here too
  What is "SSS"? Speaker Saturation Simulator. is there a SSSChematic I can check out? The SSS is by STM. Can't find schem online though, but have it on my hdd. Can email if you like.

[rockgardenlove]

^Just copy and paste the link into the address bar

[cab42]

  I'm getting a link loop to this page ...
  What is "SSS"? is there a SSSChematic I can check out?

Pete,

here's the schematic

http://aronnelson.com/gallery/STMs-Circuit-Ideas/Speaker_Saturation_Simulator

regards

Carsten

[petemoore]

  Thanks !!
  That schematic and text explains a lot !!
  Interesting...

[comfortably_numb]

I know I'm jumping on this thread a bit late, but I wanted to comment on something MartyMart said concerning digital recording.

With digital recordings, you have to remember that your input level needn't be very high
it's not like tape, where you have a definate "background noise" threashold, its much more
forgiving ( unless your input signal is inherantly noise containing )

This is true only in that noise inherant in the digital medium is far less than in analog.  There is no tape, so there is no tape his.  There IS however noise and distortion produced by timing errors, sample interpolation, and the imperfection of A/D converters.  As for the comment about noise inherant to the signal, ALL signals contain inherant noise of some sort and level. 

Rather than a continuous magnetic representation of the waveform in question as in analog recording, digital media use samples at a particular frequency of a particular bit depth.  The sampling frequency determines how often the converter takes a sample of your wave, and the bit depth determines how wide that measure of amplitude can be.

When lowering the volume of your input signal, you effectively reduce the bit depth of the sample and degrade its potential quality, also lowering the signal to noise ratio.  So a 24 bit recording system seeing a waveform at half of its capacity to accurately sample without clipping is actually recording at 12 bits, which is below CD quality. 

The idea then, is to get as close to clipping as possible without actually going over.  You need to monitor your signal very closely before recording to make sure you aren't clipping.  You can protect yourself by setting a digital limiter at -0.01dB, although this should only be done AFTER careful monitoring.  It should also be said that this has to be outboard, or at least before your converter, because that's what will be clipping.  Your software will process right along as if this never happened.  You can also clip on your output bus, so be careful of your internal levels as well.

[MartyMart]

When lowering the volume of your input signal, you effectively reduce the bit depth of the sample and degrade its potential quality, also lowering the signal to noise ratio.  So a 24 bit recording system seeing a waveform at half of its capacity to accurately sample without clipping is actually recording at 12 bits, which is below CD quality. 

Not correct, though it depends on your I/O system, quiet 24 bit recordings doesn't mean its suddenly 12 bit !!!
Unless your using a 75 dollar sound card that is  ....   

<MM>

[DuncanM]

I though that each bit gave you (almost) 6dB of dynamic range - so 16 bits gives you 96dB..
Well in an ideal world - in practice, slightly less.

24 bits - 144dB dynamic range (?)
12 bits - 72dB dynamic range.

So to degrade your 24 bit signal to 12 bit level you'd have to reduce it's level by 70dB or thereabouts.

I think a "24 bit recording system seeing a waveform at half of its capacity " is actually recording at 23 bits....

[choklitlove]

deftones