ADT-Automatic Double Tracker Simulator

[lovric]

while you are on the track to make a good ADT i'd like to share what i've red in a Carlos Rios interview.

Carlos Rios was a guitar player to, now probably forgotten, Gino Vannelli and later was working as a musical director to Lionel Ritchie. memorable little solo in "i just called to say i love you".

in the days of Vannelli, Carlos had thick and filling tone beyond distortion. he explained that after recording down the solo guitar parts, while retaining the same settings and tuning, the recording engineer would slow the tape 2% and he would then record dobules.

[notchboy]

i read through the whole thread and never found the word "capstan."  as i recall, Geoff E. taped lumps around the capstan of one machine to introduce variations in tape speed by simply changing the capstan's diameter unevenly.

IIRC it was just pieces of editing tape wrapped around the capstan.

[notchboy]

while you are on the track to make a good ADT i'd like to share what i've red in a Carlos Rios interview.

Carlos Rios was a guitar player to, now probably forgotten, Gino Vannelli and later was working as a musical director to Lionel Ritchie. memorable little solo in "i just called to say i love you".

in the days of Vannelli, Carlos had thick and filling tone beyond distortion. he explained that after recording down the solo guitar parts, while retaining the same settings and tuning, the recording engineer would slow the tape 2% and he would then record dobules.

6% is about a semitone, so 2% seems like a lot of detuning.

I've heard of detuning the guitar by the same amount as the tape speed change, so that when played back at the correct speed, the tuning is correct but the harmonics are detuned, giving a nice chorus effect against the original track.  But the speed change has to be very small.

[Mark Hammer]

Actually there is no pitch change in the final recorded product.  The deck is slowed down and the player simply retunes and plays along, in tune.  The effect achieved is one of altered envelope.  That is the attack and decay components of the instrument are perceptibly different.  Les Paul and Frank Zappa were constant users of that technique though I suspect more extreme users as well.

[MartyMart]

The deck is slowed down and the player simply retunes and plays along, in tune. 

That's funny ..... I dont know many guitarists that "play along in tune"   

I'm just kidding and have too many years of "digital keyboard" tuning etched into my brain, so
"tuning" is a nightmare for my ears !!
I even have to "re-tune" some samples of strings/brass etc ... they are never quite right ....
I'm thinking about geting the "Buzz Feighton" ( spelling? ) system on my strat
MM.

[spinoza]

YAMAHA E1010 analog delay? I got mine for 75$, it has modulation depth/speed pots and sounds very sweet.

[rockgardenlove]

So here's my semi-final verdict. 

Delay+Chorus: 20-75 ms
LFO(controls next LFO speed)->LFO(controls chorus and delay rate)



That sound right?  A delay and a chorus, hooked up to an LFO, thats speed is determined by another LFO.  Effect order is delay->chorus.  I'll then have a panner to pan from dry to wet.  I'll then put in a few FX loops, making it like this:

Code Select Expand


      in
      |
      |
(dry)panner(wet)
     /   \
    |    FX loop
    |    delay
    |    FX loop
    |    chorus
    |    FX loop
    \    /
      out
       |
       |



This should allow a large amount of control over the wet side.  I can use the FX loops to plug in more standard type effects, that don't need special LFO setups.  Things like a compressor, stuff like that.
Thoughts?

[rockgardenlove]

I just remembered that when I build this I'll be finished with my Fender tube build project.  That means I can do stereo.  Does anyone have a schematic of a stero panner hooked up to an LFO anywhere?

[Quackzed]

I've got pretty good double tracking from a crummy cassete recorder
You just record your takes on the cassette recorder and then play them back from the casette deck into your pc (original track) .then rewind and record another pass of it onto another track on your pc(doubled track).
    Hopefully they will line up enough that you can make a few snips here and there to one or the other and prevent them from going too out of sync.   sounds less cyclic than lfo's to me and also sometimes the tracks catch up and pass each other for weird "merge phase" anomalies 
   
  I think i've read about the beatles also synching recording consoles by the ac frequency feeding power to the consoles.. 

"George, turn up all the knobs... "
   

[rockgardenlove]

This is for live stuff though...

Any more info on an LFO stereo panner?

[Quackzed]

i don't know about the lfo though...
                 So here's my semi-final verdict. 

                 Delay+Chorus: 20-75 ms
                 LFO(controls next LFO speed)->LFO(controls chorus and delay rate)

sounds good to me and i think with a really slow lfo speed for the first lfo and a slightly (slghtly) faster one for lfoing the lfo... for more "random" slight warble...it will be fab

        oscillating the oscilators, boosting the boosters, overdriving the overdrives and feeding the feedbackers feedbaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/*poof*

[rockgardenlove]

So, what projects should I base this project off of?  I was thinking a PT-80 for the delay, but what should I use for the chorus?  Suggestions?

[Processaurus]

Just a quick thought - some compression or expansion on either the dry or delayed signal might help recreate the feel of two instruments/players, by changing the envelope of one of them, so the typical chorus sound would be less obvious.  A little EQ of some kind might help too, to attempt to mimic what happens when you shift your picking hand a little, or change the angle of your pick (which can make a noticeable difference in sound, thats something that can come up when doing punch-ins).

[Quackzed]

maybee a noise gate on the delayed signal for some variation on note attacks and decay times of notes...  would have to be a fast attack and decay and a low  threshold... could use a stereo chorus and just add a noise gate from the chorus side... then your regular signal has slightly different attack/decay character

[rockgardenlove]

Good ideas.  I'm thinking all these add in effects can be fairly standard stuff though, so I was just planning on putting these effects into wet/dry loops and then housing the chorus/delay in one main box because of the special LFO setup.

[Dave_B]

Abbey Road stuff moved to the Lounge...

[rockgardenlove]

Cool stuff!


Still though, what's a good chorus, delay, and panner for tweaking?

[Dave_B]

It sounds like you're getting more complicated than the original device.  The earlier advice about using one LFO to modulate another would seem to be the way to go, giving you something more complex than a typical time-based circuit.  I'm not sure you need to go to the effort of running the signal through two delay-type circuits if you can properly modulate one of them. 

[rockgardenlove]

^Yeah thats what I'm gonna do.  I'm gonna have a subtle delay hooked up on the same LFO though.  So the delay and chorus will correspond, and then at the same time I'll have a wet/dry loop built in just for general use. 


I've decided not to do the stereo LFO panner.  I'm just gonna put in two outputs, because two different amps=two different tones=sounds like more instruments.  And its an easy feature to add.


So what delay+chorus should I use?  I was considering using a PT-80 for the delay, and then a Small Clone with a jack to plug in the new LFO system...

[Dave_B]

If you don't have either, I'd start with just the PT-80.  Build a couple of outboard LFO's and use an opto to interface them to the delay.  It doesn't sound like anyone has done this before, so you're probably going to have to experiment and tell us.