What is "flabby" to you?

[petemoore]

  Since you asked 'to you'...that'd be me and I didn't read any of the 19 responses yet.
  Bluesy sound.
  To be more specific non-metal or even harder rock tones are not well liked or often used if there is any 'flabbiness'.
  One persons perception of flab can easily be another persons perception of 'extra break up on the low notes'...
  And it is a 'bad' word, I think connotating a bad vibe whenever it has been used in this and other contexts.
  So...flab is here described as looseness in the low end...though I suppose it can be applied to mids or treble...but at that point I'd guess unless the flab was digitally or painstakingly instigated to the higher frequencies, the low notes [with such settings that would flab highs], might become completely undiscernable and undefined.
  Now I've read the other responses.
  "Its what happens when your tone gets too "phat"... "
  >>This is as good as any definition, I'm sure there are a thousand different versions of tone that have been called flabby...so the definition can't be clearly defined, other than it probably is mostly referring to bass tones, bass tones that lack the definition of the listeners expectations.

[Mark Hammer]

A lot of sincere input from a lot of people, but I'm not really feeling farther ahead in my understanding.  I'll tell what I'm tending to pick up, though:

1) "Flabbiness" is more likely a consequence of something happening at the amp locus.  Pedals or pedal settings may predispose the amp to do it, and it may be power-supply or even output transformer-enabled, but ultimately its the amp and speakers misbehaving in some manner.

2) The presence of lots of low end but without much definition.  The lack of definition could be because there is no aligned harmonic content to clearly indicate the start and decay of notes.  It could be because there is a perversion of the amplitude envelope via sag or "splatter" that just gives a sense of "noteless bottom" where there is all this "stuff" that just doesn't conform to identifiable notes, either in terms of events that have identifiable start-points, or notes that have identifiable pitch.  Kind of the polar opposite of bassists John Entwhistle or Chris Squire.

Does that sort of capture it, or am I still missing the point?

[petemoore]

  That caps it pretty well for me. I'm sure there are other interpretations of the definition of "Flabbiness', derivitave or even 'way off' ones.
  Just the sound of the word connotates 'low end'.
  Kind of a derogatory sounding word...'Lack or absence of bass note definition'.

[Mark Hammer]

Yes, it may sound derogatory, but much like the difference between large-boned scale-tipping-but-taut athletes, and people whose body hangs over their belts and wiggles when the wind blows, the difference people seem to allude to is bottom/mass with and without definition.  Big thighs and "back" is one thing - they have a discernible shape/form and are dependable in size.  Stomachs/necks that can be 3, 4, 7, or 15 folds depending on whether the back of the chair leans backward or is upright, is another.  It represents formless mass.  So, I think the pejorative sense in which people use the word to refer to human dimensions is very similar to the pejorative sense they use it to refer to sound/tone.

That is....IF I've understood people correctly.

BTW, apologies to anyone dealing with body image issues.  No offense intended.

[analogmike]

Stock ts9DX in 3rd or 4th mode or most TS9's with a blue LED

[Also Wik]

I dunno but my Bazz Fuss is rather "flabby"...

[JimRayden]

'Lack of bass note definition' is in my book 'muddy'. Add overdrive and you've got 'farty'. I don't hink 'flabby' is as negative thing as those two.

I actually feel that flabbyness is more about dynamics. Although frequency response can give you an impression of flabbiness too, I certainly feel a strat be alot flabbier than an LP, be it alot brighter. It feels flabby when you play and it sounds so too. So there you go - another definition to confuse you.

Then again, I also think 8's are alot flabbier than the 12's I use. But that's propably too direct of a meaning to be a mojo-term.

Either way, I think it's quite silly searching for technical definition for such words, as it's about 'feel'. Each of us has a different background and we all have a different 'flabby' in our minds. Those who want to understand an effect technically, should take a schematic and calculate your frequency responses and distortion amounts. Those who can't read schematics have to rely on mojo-words and sound clips. For something that one can't read from a schematic, one must also accept the mojo-term. But to exactly understand what is ment by the word, one must understand the background of the person saying that word.

But I must admit, it's quite interesting finding out what other people feel about a certain word. But yeah, this thing goes into higher psychology.

THEN there's the fact that everyone hears differently. I'm not talking about your physical hearing that you lose when you get old. I'm talking about one's psychological hearing, that actually sets it all - the music one makes, the way he talks, and the way he understands melodies.

THAT leads to misinterpretation between people. Let's say two guys are listening to a guitar lick. They agree on a certain word for the sound (let's assume flabby) BUT each of them might be listening to a whole different property (dimension, if you prefer) of the sound. One listens to the crappy bottom end, the other one might be listening to the distortion character. As most of the misinterpretations might not be that extreme, even small variation makes it grow like a rolling snowball or a gossip.

For another example, at first I had quite a hard time understanding the property that makes tube distortion so damn good. Yet everyone kept talking about it. To me, every device just sound different, with transistors making a wide variety of sounds, as well as tubes. Buzzwords used didn't help me at all. I just couldn't find the extra 'glassyness', 'grit', 'mojo' or any other property that has referred to it. I have quite some time working with music gear and picked up electronics a while back and while I understand the principles of both devices and can design circuits with them, I think I'm closer but still can't find the right word for the difference. I bet there isn't one (the word, I mean).

Beat me up and flame me but that's my very own personal not-so-very-humble opinion. But quite personal nonetheless.

-----------
Jimbo

[petemoore]

I actually feel that flabbyness is more about dynamics. Although frequency response can give you an impression of flabbiness too, I certainly feel a strat be alot flabbier than an LP, be it alot brighter. It feels flabby when you play and it sounds so too. So there you go - another definition to confuse you.
  I had considered just such an added confusion, but your words express it better than what I had in mind.
  There is so much 'to' it, confusion is emminent.
  I always called strat length calibration guitars to be 'floppier' with a given thickness set of strings, the extra string length allows the strings to 'move around more', and the pitches or amplitudes seem less 'rigid' that when an LP length guitar is used. I could see where this could be termed as Flabby...but I like the sound of '*floppier string feel' when comparing a Strat to and LP...but most often use the term 'Looser feel'.

[petemoore]

  Still I can't decide whether 'amp and speaker flabbiness' should be included in the same viegns as 'overloaded opamp induced' flabbiness [swamped or starved 9v circuit 'flab'.
  They are caused by two different 'things' [one being say...tubes asked to output more bass than their current output allows/speakers asked to do more lowend bass than they're 'comfortable with], the other being amplification stages of the Si kind which are asked to do more than they are 'comfortable with...although separated by device type and place in the signal chain, some of the 'flabbinesses' have crossover sound ie flab can be had by different methods which produce many similarities of their sounds.

[Mark Hammer]

Oh, man.  And I was THAT close to feeling like I understood it, too. but ultimately 

Some folks use it in a pejorative way, some in a complimentary way.  Personally, I don't care how they use it or what it means, as long as it always means the same thing to everybody at the table.

Boy, and you thought "transparent" was a toughie!!

[JimRayden]

Some folks use it in a pejorative way, some in a complimentary way.  Personally, I don't care how they use it or what it means, as long as it always means the same thing to everybody at the table.

Okay, so we've got a huge gray-blue table right here with 5500 people around it, let's try to define it for this community at least, because we can't do it for the world.

-------------
Jimbo

[RDV]

What "I" call "Flabby" as related to guitar sound is something a friend of mine used to call "The Bad Acoustic Sound" where your electric guitar has no bite or treble and what distortion you're able to get sounds really farty and bad with no real definition.

Flabby

RDV

[Paul Marossy]

In my book, flabby and loose are essentially the same thing. I guess I would say muddy is roughly the same thing to me as well. For me, it all boils down to clarity and responsiveness - the two of which are tied together thru how it is EQ'd. Now, I'm not talking about tube rectifier sag - that's a different set of circumstances - a SS rectifier will always sound "tighter". 

[squidsquad]

Hmmm...to ME (not claiming to be an expert)....I've ONLY used it in refference to a speaker not being able to handle low notes....and it's *flappin in the wind*...(not producing a note).  This is a problem on many Fender Twins...which I've used hundreds of over the years.  Depends on the type of speakers of course.  The Smooth & Slim built by Gill Ayan solved the problem....filtering your lows (after all your pedal boosts)...and then allowing you to turn up the bass tone control on your amp...which I often had to turn WAY down.
Not plugging the pedal...it isn't for everyone.  On my Music man w/2 10"s....I cannot use that pedal as it takes ALL the tone away.  Suprisingly...the MM amp handles lows well...even w/the *low* boost switch on.

[phaeton]

Mark,

I've thought a little bit about your question and got a little more time now to give you a half-intelligent answer.  I'm not going to read the rest of the thread since my last post, so I might be plowing familiar ground here..... but as for me, here's what i'd determine as 'flabby' sounding.

First off, the 'flab factor' is not entirely limited to electrified string instruments.  In fact, a lot of times brass instruments can get a 'flabbiness' to them especially if played sloppily or by an amateur.  Tubas and sousaphones are particularly susceptible but on the way to work this morning I was listening to the Who's cover of "Bucket T", and Entwistle has a trumpet or french horn track in there that's got flab.

Some important elements:

1) For proper flabbing, the attack needs to be doctored.
Usually starting with a 'stutter' or a bit of time delay.  If it's multiple notes (such as a chord or interval) the two notes need to start at different times, or at least with different initial (see below) intensities.  In reality, a chord on the guitar played really sloppily sounds like it's played really sloppily.  This is something a little different, and while the player actually strikes the strings pretty much simultaneously, by the time the sound comes out of the speaker it's been altered by false distortion harmonics or other artifacts to create the illusion of it coming off kind of 'crooked'.  Note however, that while the running tone of a flabby sound can lack all sorts of definition, the attack has to be at least somewhat pronounced.

2) Amplitude swelling.
Once the chord or note is initiated, it has to experience (presumably) unnatural changes in amplitude.  Very slight, but noticeable, nonetheless.  This can go either way-  either the sound initially drops out after the attack and comes back in to the original volume level (like sag, or overreactive compression), or it actually swells up a little louder just after onset, and then returns to a normal volume level.  In the latter sense, it gives the impression that the note or chord is 'oozing' out of the instrument as if you just lanced it with a garden trowel.

3) Pitch swelling.
The note or chord should also have the ability to arc slightly- either up or down upon initial strike.  No different than how guitar strings can go slightly (but perceivably) sharp when you really whang on them.  Or like a cheeseball bass I played once, where the force of the vibration actually caused flexing at the neck joint, thereby causing the pitch to drop about 1/10 to 1/8 step when I pounded the low E open.  I've played a few floyd wannabes that had this quality to them also.

4) Frequency shifting.
This is the fun one.  The filtering on the note also needs to change as the note sustains.  Certain frequencies or sets of them need to poke out here and there in a haphazard way.  Not necessarily in a predictably external sense like a phaser does, but somethig a little more reactive- either dependent upon amplitude, pitch, attack, or (preferably) a combination.  Also, it shouldn't have the same 'pattern' every time, meaning that the same 'vowel' shouldn't be enunciated each time, but it should have differing 'sets' of the spectrum that get shifted in and out by the triggering force.  In addition, the frequency shifting needs to be somewhat 'incomplete', so that it doesn't really 'speak full vowels' so much, it has to be subtle.  Most commonly though, from (attack to middle of sustain) the sound tends to go "ooooowwww" (pretend you just injured yourself, and say "oww!" in slow motion).
Ideally, the note would start with a bright or otherwise articulated attack, immediately followed by a dull but swift rise to the same brightness, and then as it sustains gets both gently brighter and gently bassier, then gently less bright as it fades out (bassiness follows amplitude), and then at some time near the end of the sustain dropping back to dull rapidly.

4.5) Definition (or lack thereof)
How you want to muddy up or not muddy up the actual running tone is up for debate.  Distortion is great for this.  Some folks will recommend drowning it in fuzz, but I will hold the opinion that you can have flabby sounds that are toadilly clean.  Some of the 'rubberband bass' sounds in some 1960s power pop, along with some fretless standup bass stuff can get flabby too.  Conversely, someday we should probably debate as to whether the larger brass instruments (such as the baritone, tuba, sousaphone, etc) do or do not have a 'distorted' quality to them.  Maybe not from actual waveform clipping, but perhaps reflective harmonics.

Decay.
As the note decays, the treble should probably evaporate off the top pretty quickly.  In fact, I would move for the bass response to increase, and even begin to distort in a farty, loose, mushy way (think of Ge diodes staggered like 2:3) as the note fades out, if you get my drift.  The mids might stay prominent, but unlike the bottom end, they should be moving away from distortion.

6) Putting it all together.
The hard part.  For one, there is no way to predict how long the note or chord will be.  For two, it's imperative that all the above things are fairly random.  You don't always get all of the above elements at once, you don't get them in any set order, and the amount and variation of effect each element puts into it is different every time.  None of it can really be (at least not obviously) on any sort of schedule (like a phaser, flanger or chorus that has a predictable oscillation/rotation).  Yet, none of it can really be so reactive, or at least perceived as so reactive that it is, again, predictable.  A perfect example of what NOT to do is an auto-wah on 11.  "wow-wow-wow" etc.

I assume you're asking the question so that you might ponder building a "flab pedal".   Good effing luck, heh.  However, I have an idea or two that might make this a hellofalot simpler than one might expect. 

[TELEFUNKON]

I assume you're asking the question so that you might ponder building a "flab pedal".   Good effing luck, heh.  However, I have an idea or two that might make this a hellofalot simpler than one might expect. 

there is a capacitor included, that can`t follow the offered signal fast enough,
due to the restricted current performance of an active device.

Nice analysis, Phaeton! 

[David]

toooooo much lows in a guitar amp.

remember guys, WERE NOT BASS PLAYERS!

Some of us are.

[hairyandy]

In my experience I've always thought of "flabby" and "muddy" as similar descriptions, both related to lack of definition in the bottom end.  When I think of these terms the easiest way for me to describe them is with gear that I own or have played that produces this result.  I can get a super flabby sound with my Les Paul through my 100w 1973 Marshall Super Trem head and a 4x12.  I always jump the bright and normal inputs and dial in the best mix of the two.  The normal input alone lacks some serious definition and tends to sound really flabby to me in the low end, even with the bass most of the way down, especially with a neck humbucker.  Now my '59 4x10 Bassman doesn't get flabby too easily, I suspect because the 10's are so much tighter and more focused and the amp is pushing the speakers to the hilt.  I always think of Tweed and Black/Silver face Deluxes as having a really flabby, undefined low end.  Those always sound good to me because of their sweet top end and great mids and they'd probably sound great with Gil's Smooth & Slim.  I agree with the description of a TS9 as being flabby, I've never gotten a very tight, defined low end when using one unless the tone is way down and then it sounds like crap to me.

I think of flabby as the opposite of tight and it's something that I try to avoid.  My 65 London 2x12 combo is very tight, especially with single-coils like the Fralin in my Tele.

Hope that helps...

[StephenGiles]

Hang on........flabby over here just means fat........someone with a beer gut or who eats too much.....nothing to do with amps at all! just like heavymetal band roadies!

Says he having just eaten a superb curry!

[hairyandy]

Says he having just eaten a superb curry!

A little Steak & Kidney pie with a pint of Old Speckled Hen will make you flabby for sure!  Mmmmmmm, flabby!