OT: Could a bassist or sound enthusiast lend a hand?

[John Egerton]

Yeah Yeah... I know we're all sound enthusiasts! 

I'm in a 3 piece band similar to that of muse... For those of you that don't know who they are, they are a 3 piece band from the UK with a really full sound, despite only being a 3 piece...

The main thing about their sound that amazes me is that their songs can be played by just the drummer and the bassist alone as the bassists sound seems to 'fill' everything...

The guitar is then just added over the top to emphasise things, or for the guitarist to go nuts with the stab button of a fuzz factory...

I have a really good live setup and so does the drummer...

The bassist owns a 300w Ashdown combo amp with 4 10 inch speakers and uses a line6 podxt live for bass plugged before it...

What I would like is some tips for trying to emulate this sort of sound in my band as at present, our sound is near-bare when I'm not playing which is not the type of sound I want.

I've tried using a boss octave pedal to add upper and lower octaves to his bass sound, as well as running his bass guitar into a 50w guitar amp and miking that through the PA to no avail... His bass just sounds too mid oriented and pingy...

Any advice would be greatly appreciated...

Thanks

John

[$uperpuma]

one thing that I hear in Muse's sound is some tone blending... splitting the bass tone into two signals, fuzzing or synthing one and leaving the other to the natural amplified tone... at least back when they could be bothered with rocking out, thats what they did...
tough to do that with just one amp... and there are a lot of sound supporting guitars on their records, despite only being a three piece...

[MartyMart]

Well there's a few things you can try, or perhaps you've exhausted them all :

Splitting the bass as mentioned possibly even a short delayed "stereo" bass rig for more spread

Using the Octave effect and/or using timed delays to fill out the bass part some more.

Bass synth pedal or other similar effect (POG) for harmony parts, along with straight bass "sound"

Otherwise perhaps a more "dextrous" bass player  !!!

Muse all have a huge amount of talent and that doesn't come in a pedal ...... yet !

MM.

[petemoore]

  Maybe that's it then.
 The bass could use a fatter pickup..or
 to go through a tunable, blendable notch filter..or something like it to produce more upper and lower registers to what's there
 "... His bass just sounds too mid oriented and pingy...
 A 'wide' band pickup, one that is known for not rolling off highs/lows, then an amp for *the 'top' or 'higher freqs' [say 4x10's or 12''s in a cab of some sort, and preamp controls w/power enough to drive them], and his amp as 'bottom' end amp, adding another, other quantity of sub bass is a heavy moving option....see, IMO Great Sub Bass tone can "Always' be added to with great result..add a few more tons of foundation...it won't rip the head off, it may full body massage instead, almost no matter HOW LOUD is it made to be.
 'Grains of salt' [cryptic OT Warning] were worth their weight in gold...once...you'll have to check the exchange rate where your bass lives, in this case, weigh it all in first, then mull the options.
 

[AL]

I think some more info might be needed - I'm a little confused. The bassist from Muse uses the Ashdown and 4x10" combo? or Your bass player does?

First thing - realisitically they've got a kick a$$ sound system and engineer. So now that's out of the way. Muse is pretty noisy correct? Acoustic heads are inexpensive, loud, and have a great overdriven bass sound if that's what you're going for. Also, your bassist may just need more power. There are only 3 of you. Maybe an 18" or a 2 x 15" cab is in order. If he is using a 4x10" and it isn't cutting it try the 18" under it. 4 x 10" cabs are great (I use one for my bass) but they are tight, punchy and VERY directional. Ampeg does make a more expenisive 4 x10" and the difference is immediately noticeable.

Now, does your bassist sound thin because it is thin or is his sound just sitting weird in the mix with the rest of the band? Possibly the guitar and bass need to sit down for a few hours and re-EQ everything (fun huh?).

Then again maybe it's his bass. What kind is it? Have you tried an EQ pedal with it or a compressor?

I don't even know if I'm on the right track here or not - I think I need some more info - but I hope this helps a little.

AL

[nelson]

Do a search for these effects


Parallel universe

Bass paralooper

Flipster


Put the Parallel universe in the loop of the Paralooper mix in effected signal as desired. Put the bass into flipster, run flipster into paralooper into high input of bass amp. Flatten the EQ of the amp and rely on the EQ from the flipster. Just use the bass amp for clean headroom.

That will give you plenty of bottom end, a clean bass tone a mildly overdriven bass tone and all out muse fuzz synthy goodness.

Thats 3 builds, they are rather easy builds though and all can be done on veroboard, There are layouts for them if you search.

That should fill out alot of sonic spce and offer your bassist not only more tonal options but noise making capabilities aswell.

[John Egerton]

Just to clarify....

My bassist uses the Ashdown....

Christ wolstenholme from muse uses marshall dbs gear....

You know what $uperpuma.... I think you're onto something there, you see whenever he engages any kind of distortion his place in the mix dissapears slightly becuase of the drop in bass response.... The line6 pedal has a wet and dry out for the modelling and effects...

What I might try on friday is to use the main ashdown amp solely as a pushed clean amp connected to the dry on the pod... then connect the wet to a smaller 50W bass combo amp to b used solely for amp modelling and effects... It'll be miked up, his bass sound will have all the effects it needs, but it'll still have that underlying clean bass sound...

I'll give i a go and let you guys know what happens...

Also, the ashdown amp he has has a subharmonic feature on it that might come in handy...


Thanks guys...

John

[hairyandy]

I second Marty's idea on the EH POG.  If you were to split your bass tone and send it clean to the Ashdown and then send a split to the POG into another amp or two (Bassman, Marshall, etc.) with maybe some compression or additional fuzz, I think you could get some great stuff ala Muse and it would fill up the whole room...

Also, get online and do a search for Tom Petersson's bass rig from Cheap Trick.  He's always got monster tone and usually has a few amps running at the same time with effects.

[Ge_Whiz]

On the cheaper side, there's a lot you can do with a cheap digital bass pedal like the Digitech BP50. I know, I mentioned the "d" word...

[tcobretti]

A 4x10 cab is not the fattest sounding bass cab, so you are not starting off on the best footing.  In my experience, 15s just sound bigger.  Also, my bass player plays a Schecter with active eq, and when he tried out my p-bass copy it sounded like a brontosaurus using his rig.  He had to back off the bass eq knob to reign it in.  The other thing I would try is I would compress it, probly a lot.

So I guess my advice is: big speakers, manly bass, and compression.

[Unbeliever]

I've never heard Muse, but could it be simply that your bass player doesn't play the same way? In my experience, bass effects, cabinet selection or sound manipulation add about 10% extra, the 'basis' is note selection and timing.

[343 Salty Beans]

Another thing about the Muse is they do a lot of studio layering...I forget which song it is, but one of the synth bass tracks is layered over itself like 5 times or something crazy.

I'm so vague and HELPFUL 

[shoegazed]

the subharmonic on the ashdowns is in my opinion extremely usuable and very musical. my bass player switches it in and out during songs and it really works to round out the bottom end, and add a decent bass pedal effect...

[Bernardduur]

I had a bit of the same problem and I solved it with this:

- Better amp EQ (bring out more of the lower mids, lower the bass and the real mids and push the highs)
- Looper pedal; I just place all my effects in one loop and leave the other loop blank (as in clean sound); a clean sound blend in sounds huge when used with effects. Mix in the loops as 75% clean, 25% effects
- Flipster is a great choice; I use this one for my main OD tone
- Try putting a compressor on the effects loop of the looper pedal; evens out their signal.
- Use a bass synth; I use a SYB-3 in the loop set completely to 0 (except for the volume); this gives me only the pedal's carrier signal
- Use fuzz wisely; not too much fuzz and use a fuzz with a mid boost (I use a modded Big Muff w/ extreme mid boost and first diode pair removed)

I also use good buffers and have active electronics in my bass (to beefen the sound up; works great)

Oh, Here is my pedalboard

[John Egerton]

Hey Bernardrurr...

What's the pedal in your pic that has the dirt and personality controls?

Where can I find a good build for that one?

Also, what benefit does setting the bass synth on 0 to only get the carrier signal do exactly?

Also, which looper pedal would you reccomend? I was going to run the effects signal to another amp but I might go with your idea now...

Thanks again for helping guys...

John

[tommy.genes]

I'm a little late to this thread, but I'll jump in to emphasize what a few have already touched on...

Make sure your bassist can get a good, powerful, rich, full, round (but not tubby, nasal or overly bright) un-effected sound first, otherwise you might just be polishing a turd. You don't mention what kind of bass is being used, but we could ignore that for a moment because I've heard even Fender Musicmasters (short scale, teeny pickup) get great tone.

The two big factors in amp volume and tone are power and speaker surface area. Also, getting a good sound in your rehearsal space, getting a sound that you and your friends can hear on stage, and getting a sound that is big enough to fill a whole room are very different things, with each one requiring progressively more power and speaker area.

So, first fully explore the Ashdown's EQ section (remembering that more extreme EQ settings require more power, and may require you to turn the amp down to avoid clipping). If you still find the amp lacking, you'll need to add more power, more speakers or both. More power can be had with a bigger head or a "slave" head, and more speakers can be added with additional cabinets. Try another 410 or a 115 to see what works best. (Personally, I've never found 18" cabs to be worth the back strain.)

Also, be sure to explore the used market. Some of the big ol' amps from a few years/decades ago had great big tone, but they may be cheaper because they are no longer in vogue - and nobody wants to carry them.

-- T. G. --

[TheBishop]

To get a phat bass sound, look to the masters: James Jamerson, Aston "Family Man" Barrett and Robbie Shakespeare.

All you have to do is play a Fender Jazz clean with your fingers and old strings.

[DEZREJECT]

my old bassist, the best ive found to date.. he used a HUGE custom cabinet i forget the name of the company im trying to figure it out i emailed him...but he ran with that 8x10 cab, and some monster bitch of an amp.... maybe his set ups just not... powerful enough... he played a really funky style and it really added a lot to a metal band.. amazing thickness to his sound ill try to get amp and cab info to help more... but i guess just for my input... get more power!!! lol

[tommy.genes]

To get a phat bass sound, look to the masters: James Jamerson, Aston "Family Man" Barrett and Robbie Shakespeare.
All you have to do is play a Fender Jazz clean with your fingers and old strings.

Just to nitpick ( ), Jamerson's "Funk Machine" was a P-Bass, but your point is taken...

However, from what I've heard, the Muse sound is not the Fender-bass-with-old-strings sound. He needs to add volume and fullness while keeping the brightness, punch and growl.

Don't you just love the utterly subjective terms we musicos have to use to discuss our tone?

-- T. G. --

[TheBishop]

Just to nitpick ( ), Jamerson's "Funk Machine" was a P-Bass, but your point is taken...

T'is true; I rounded off since it applied to two out of three and JJ's has a chrome pick-up cover, common in reggae.

Make sure your bassist can get a good, powerful, rich, full, round (but not tubby, nasal or overly bright) un-effected sound first, otherwise you might just be polishing a turd.

I think this is key. And to achieve a round sound, I've always ditched a pick in favour of fingers.