It was only a matter of time - BSIAB clone on eBay

[O]

Hope he got permission to "clone" the pedal...

BSIAB 2

[boedonaldson]

How sad is that. Lets all find the guy and demand he give GGG some royalties from the pedals he is selling. Fair enough if he was selling them to his friends for a break even profit,but selling them as a profitable income, thats really low. Shame on wireman1957

[jonathan perez]

tooooo much money!

[markm]

Funny how they all use the same marketing catch-phrases in their ads isn't it?
I'll bet his comp will be "very transparent" and of course.....BLUE LED's......
........oh my lord I can't control myself

[jonathan perez]

SHIMMERING

[markm]

Check it out.....
he modified the ad to read....

These  use the general guitar gadgets circuit board   Thanks Felows for a great pedal &   is totaly hand built all compnonents are installed & soldered carefully by hand & it is hand wired using all high quality Metal film caps & resistors --

I'll bet he de-bugged his first one right here on this very BB.
He's probably lurking here as we type.......watch your back!

[BlueToad]

How sad is that. Lets all find the guy and demand he give GGG some royalties from the pedals he is selling. Fair enough if he was selling them to his friends for a break even profit,but selling them as a profitable income, thats really low. Shame on wireman1957

From the GGG site:

My licensing options are very simple and fair. There are two choices of licensing plans that I offer.

   1. If you purchase the Ready-To-Solder PCBs from me, you are free to use them to build stompboxes for profit. If you plan on big production numbers, I offer a discount on quantities on PCBs.
   2. If you wish to fabricate the PCBs yourself, I request a licensing fee of 10% of the selling price of each stompbox you sell. If you sell a lot of units, we can most likely negotiate a lower percentage fee.

from http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&wrap=forprofit
So if he bought boards (which he may or may not have, but that is how I interperet "General Guitar Gadgets Circuit Boards") I don't see an ethical problem. Admittedly, I wouldn't pay that much for a BSIAB2, but $100 seems like a reasonable price for a handbuilt pedal of reasonable quality. It's certainly nothing particularly novel, but neither are half the pedals on the market.

[sta63bmx]

It says on the GGG website that if you buy the boards from them, you are free to sell them for a profit.

http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&wrap=forprofit

1. If you purchase the Ready-To-Solder PCBs from me, you are free to use them to build stompboxes for profit. If you plan on big production numbers, I offer a discount on quantities on PCBs.

2. If you wish to fabricate the PCBs yourself, I request a licensing fee of 10% of the selling price of each stompbox you sell. If you sell a lot of units, we can most likely negotiate a lower percentage fee.

That almost seems like GGG is giving all the info for free.  I mean, let's say I sell the BSIAB I just made to a friend of mine for $80 and send JD $8.  That's fair, according to the info.  Or let's say I hate etching (true) so I pay him $14 for the board.  Then I'm free to sell it to someone else and pocket all the money.  For what people would *probably* buy, it's probably cheaper for you to send him 10%.  But at the same time, you can make your own layouts and sell them on your own without violating any art "copyrights" I guess, although you're kind of taking a crap on the people who developed the circuits if it's something like the BSIAB.  What's kind of sad is that $100 for that BSIAB is a better deal than $100 for a reissue TS-9 or a TS-9DX!

So he's in the clear if he bought the boards, I guess.  I think people are getting off too easy, but I won't complain about generosity. 

Ha!  I am t3h slow.

[burnt fingers]

I don't think this is a huge deal.  how is this guy different that any of the booteek guys who clone FF's and TS and sell them at a premium.
If ggg is OK with the use of their purchased boards ( which they would have no recourse anyway) then it's cool.  The only thing I find lame is that he's selling it as a BSIBII.  I think he should be original and at least rename the pedal something like Brown sox in my shorts II or something.

My .02
Scott

[KORGULL]

I don't think this is a huge deal.  how is this guy different that any of the booteek guys who clone FF's and TS and sell them at a premium.
If ggg is OK with the use of their purchased boards ( which they would have no recourse anyway) then it's cool.  The only thing I find lame is that he's selling it as a BSIBII.  I think he should be original and at least rename the pedal something like Brown sox in my shorts II or something.

My .02
Scott

...and he could've waited until he had a picture of the finished product with graphics and the proper knobs before putting up the ad. Among other things, he also managed to spell Van Halen wrong.    

[Unbeliever]

I don't think this is a huge deal.  how is this guy different that any of the booteek guys who clone FF's and TS and sell them at a premium.

Most of the 'bootek' guys have been around for a little while, and you have some confidence they will be around for a while still in future to handle repairs, customer support, and so on. 30 days warranty is pretty lame. There's good reasons why 'booter's charge what they do - because the price incorporates covering customer support, warranty, rent, and so on.

[stumper1]

Lame or not - if he IS supporting GGG and doing the right thing by their licensing agreement, then an least give him credit for not ripping off the circuit AND supporting GGG.

As to who he is and the "quality" of his product...that's another story.

[markm]

Lame or not - if he IS supporting GGG and doing the right thing by their licensing agreement, then an least give him credit for not ripping off the circuit AND supporting GGG.

As to who he is and the "quality" of his product...that's another story.

I'll give him credit for acknowledging JD.
If anyone knows if this guy's on the level, he will.
I have to say though, no offense or insult to anyone,
I doubt highly it will sell.

[jimbob]

Who cares...It doent sound like big business to me. The guy probably made it, and decided to sell it - and where better than the online garage sale of the world. I dont see him really making money on it. There are TONS of theads here about how you actually lose more in time (if your time is worth money) than you would make. Decent looking job though- but we havnt seen how well his technique and workmanship is. This isnt the 1st time youll see this kind of thing going on. Now if this guy was selling 5000 of them that might be a different story.

[Phorhas]

I'll bet he de-bugged his first one right here on this very BB.
He's probably lurking here as we type.......watch your back!

I'll bet that's correct for half of the "Boutique" industry...

At least it's not anothe fuzzclone or a clone that scream(er)

[Ed G.]

I guess it's not a big deal if he just built a couple and then decided to sell them, but if he's building them and expects to sell them on an ongoing business, well, that's another story, but I'd prefer if people wanted to buy a completed product to buy it from JD himself.
On JD's site, it reads " There may be other pcb artworks posted on this site that are also not eligible due to licensing agreements I have with the owners of the copyrights to the artwork."

[DuncanM]

The BSIAB is a strange one - there's nowhere to buy one ready made apart from JD (?) and so how does the non-technical guitarist get hold of one?
Besides, the whole pedal making thing is a great way to lose money unless you're churning out bucketloads and get economies of scale.

I used to make much more stuff for myself until I realised that it was money down the drain - no resale value...   
Much more sensible to buy a pedal and then at least you have something you can sell again.
I've just added up how much I've spent on components in the last few months and, to be honest, I could have bought pedals cheaper... (OK the pedals I've made are not the sort you could buy but ...)
And then there's the possibility that it won't work and you've paid out good money for junk.
IT"S GOT TO BE A HOBBY.
Make something and you'll never get even a fraction of your investment back unless you have a reputation, a brand name, and then it's a business not a hobby.
I think anyone who expects to make a living from selling handmade guitar pedals is in for a long hard slog.

<end of rant>

Oh, and if it was me, I'd be paying a royalty to Ed and the others who did the R&D if I was doing it as an ongoing thing.
I wonder if it'll sell.....

[Aharon]

Hummm,I don't know,a lot of people would rather pay $100 for a well made pedal than $40 for a piece of crap made in China.
When people find out I make my own pedalls and amps right away the want stuff that I turn down immediatly of course otherwise I would be building all day and nothing else.I have given away pedals to friends but that's about it.
I've also traded.

Why does everything have to have resale value?,
Who thinks $200 bucks in parts in a year is supposed to be an investment you get a return on?
I see it as entertainment,pleasure,saves me some money and keeps my brain working.
The average pedal costs me $20,what can I buy for $20?,behringer's new line of pedals comes close and I own a few but I've also returned a few,did not like them.

Yes I know,there was an "investment" already there for tools (which I had for other stuff anyways),an old laser printer for $8,and so on.
Look,I built many tube amps,similar ones going for $1500 at my music store,they cost me an average of $150 some less if I use salvaged parts.

You can never loose money,even if you don't like the pedal,the worse that can happen is somebody is willing to buy it for what it cost to build or it makes a good gift for a friend or aquaintance plus you have a great place to hang at like this forum and others.

The good thing about DIY is that you can pinpoint the pedal you like the most,like your favourite anything,build it anyway you want with all the frills or simple as they come,gold contacts or paper clips.
In the biginning I used to build everything (around 1999) but that's cool,I was learning,now I build maybe 5 a year if that much and I choose carefully,research,find the parts and then execute.
And for those that say that DIY kills the industry,bull,I own more store bought gear than most people I know.
Aharon
DIY rules.

[Ed G.]

The BSIAB is a strange one - there's nowhere to buy one ready made apart from JD (?) and so how does the non-technical guitarist get hold of one?

There's some non-diy folks that are aware of the GGG site, JD's pedals are well-regarded among the folks at the musictoyz.com forums. They like the BSIAB, Doug's Meteor and JD's Standard Overdrive, which is a tubescreamer with the mods that were used by Landgraff (without the $400 price tag)

There are reviews for several pedals that JD builds at Harmony Central.
If someone wants a BSIAB, they can easily purchase them from JD.

The whole 'building for sale' issue is a sticky one, especially in this situation. JD and I have an agreement with the sales of the completed pedals and circuit boards. There's little control over what can be done once a PCB for the BSIAB is sold. JD makes his money, I make my cut, and the person who purchases the pcb technically can do what he wants with it, whether it's to build for himself, friends, or build to sell. Although I would prefer that those who buy the pcbs make the pedals for themselves, I can't force people not to build pedals to sell.

I think out of respect, though, that people who buy the PCBs or use the artwork to etch their own PCBs should limit it to personal use, or to build for a friend or two.
Let me start off by saying I know the circuit is not totally original, and it builds on the work of other, better designers. Real designers. I tweaked the circuit to sound how I wanted it to sound, to make me happy, to get the sound I wanted to hear. Once I did that, I thought others would like it also. JD was interested in the circuit, especially once we knew we could have a circuit that wouldn't squeal and oscillate with high gain, as the other designs had before. It was very tricky to get the BSIAB packaged without squealing.
For all the information JD puts out there on his site as a service to the DIY community, he has a right to some monetary compensation. And he gives me a very fair share. We're not getting rich, but I do get to buy some new tubes, speakers, cables, etc., every now and then.

But I digress...the point is, do I think it's cool that others are trying to sell the pedals? I don't know. It has the potential to affect JD more than me, financially. So if JD's ok with that, I guess I am.

On a different level, I think it's somewhat indicative of a stage in the whole diy/professional thing. People who like to play guitar and like pedals and can figure this stuff out see an opportunity to make money at this sort of thing. And it's appealling. Who doesn't want to make money doing what they like to do? As a result, we're seeing lots of fly-by-night pedal companies who are putting out clones of other designs, and most of them got started here, I suspect. How many of them will be around in a year? In five years? Not many. Because this guy who is selling pedals for $99 isn't making much money. After the cost of the pcb, the box, switches, components, etc., what are the profits? And out of that, how much does someone make per hour building a pedal? Not too much, I would guess.

As a result of all this, the guys who are designing new circuits, or, as I have done, tweaked existing circuits into something new, are more secretive. This is unfortunate, because it results in a decrease in new ideas, new sounds. As it stands, I'm always tweaking the BSIAB, and eventually, I'm going back to the breadboard. Once I'm done, will I release a schematic? It's not likely.

[zjokka]

Ed G, it's cool that you have the character to step into the light.

*Whatever legal issues there are, are between you and the alleged owner of an alleged patent or copyright. There are probably only patents on the basic stages or the circuit and older that GGG of course.
*Are we diy-ers jealous because he's making our little secret known to the masses? Weren't we the ones always claiming it's insane to splash out $300 for what you can have under $100.
*If I hadn't landed here, I think it would be a real deal (if the pedal really sounds good) to have a true bypass A-circuit handwired pedal from some guy who takes personal responsability for the product. Your Boss pedal sure hasn't received as much attention as this one. He offers free custom artwork!
*I'd rather buy from someone I can talk to then from any large corporation

That's I think a bottom line: for people who don' want to diy, show me a better stompbox on ebay at the same price.

Someone could try to sue someone here, if they hadn't had that agreement. It's not very likely that such cases result to anything,  because it is in the public domain. How committed are you to truly hiding your material if you publish it on a website. most of us hadn't even dreamt of doing stuff like this before the internet. There were books but no google. So knowledge is bound to disseminate, and we're all enjoying the consequence.. in our own way.

peace,

ZJ